electric fire

[weressl]

That wasn't caused by this electrician.

That is correct Larry.

Suppose the homeowner had turned that breaker on. Would the person who left the feed unterminated be any more or less at fault?

Between turning on a breaker and leaving an equipment feed hanging with bare wires, the latter is the more negligent act, IMO.

The homeowner would be less liable - but not scott-free - than an electrician. The electrician knows, or should know, better. In this case he behaved like a homeowner.

That is why I said that the liability percentages between the original individual who disconnected the wiring and left it unsecure and the electrician who turned the breaker off would be determined by the court or mediator.

There was a court-case in upstate NY where an electrician got killed by an Elastimold elbow. The elbow was sliced open and then retaped with Scotch 33+. Instead of using a hot stick, he appears to grabbed it and got fried. It was established that the cutting and taping was done after the initial installation by an unknown and untraceable entity. It was a complex and drawn-out case. The Owner of the apartment complex was faulted for not keeping records of the repair, thus rendering the person with the largest portion of responsibility unidentifiable. The worker was faulted for performing the work unsafely.

 

[growler]

Any electrician who turns a breaker onto a circuit not installed by him, or have no idea what it feeds or not previously checked by shorts performs a negligent act.

OK Laszlo, You are on a service call to install a light fixture and repair a loose receptacle in a rental property. The last tenant moved out a couple of weeks ago and since then the turn key crew has been in cleaning up and spot painting. You get the lock box code and go into the house and all the power is off ( this is very common) because the clean up crew just truned off all the breakers in the basement panel before leaving. The meter is on the house and all you have to do is trun on the breakers, so which breaker are safe to turn on?

So are you saying that we need a complete safety inspection before any breakers can be turned on? Remember all these breakers are off and this may take a very long time if we have to check out each circuit.

 

[weressl]

OK Laszlo, You are on a service call to install a light fixture and repair a loose receptacle in a rental property. The last tenant moved out a couple of weeks ago and since then the turn key crew has been in cleaning up and spot painting. You get the lock box code and go into the house and all the power is off ( this is very common) because the clean up crew just truned off all the breakers in the basement panel before leaving. The meter is on the house and all you have to do is trun on the breakers, so which breaker are safe to turn on?

So are you saying that we need a complete safety inspection before any breakers can be turned on? Remember all these breakers are off and this may take a very long time if we have to check out each circuit.

I would prepare a form to relieve your liability and have it signed by the Owner. Not unlike in many Service organizations, they fill out a form where they indicate the work they are going to perform, with the anticipated price and have all the disclaimers and conditions on that simplified Contract form - that's what it is - and have it signed by the Owner. Simple enough.

 

[Rewire]

OK Laszlo, You are on a service call to install a light fixture and repair a loose receptacle in a rental property. The last tenant moved out a couple of weeks ago and since then the turn key crew has been in cleaning up and spot painting. You get the lock box code and go into the house and all the power is off ( this is very common) because the clean up crew just truned off all the breakers in the basement panel before leaving. The meter is on the house and all you have to do is trun on the breakers, so which breaker are safe to turn on?

So are you saying that we need a complete safety inspection before any breakers can be turned on? Remember all these breakers are off and this may take a very long time if we have to check out each circuit.

why are you turning on breakers? If I did not turn it off I would not want to turn it on until I found out why it was off.

 

[growler]

why are you turning on breakers? If I did not turn it off I would not want to turn it on until I found out why it was off.

On rental properties and properties that are for sale they will turn all the breakers off to make sure that didn't miss anything. The agent or owner will not want to run all through the house to 5 bedrooms and 4 bathrooms just to make sure they didn't leave a fan running so if the panel is in the garage they will just turn the breakers off..

Now you are there because the home inspection report says that a GFCI receptacle in the basement bath is not working. You will need to turn the circuit on to test but the panel isn't marked.

So you are another one that's doing a complete electrical inspection on every home where the panel isn't labeled or is labeled incorrectly ( almost every home )?

 

[Rewire]

On rental properties and properties that are for sale they will turn all the breakers off to make sure that didn't miss anything. The agent or owner will not want to run all through the house to 5 bedrooms and 4 bathrooms just to make sure they didn't leave a fan running so if the panel is in the garage they will just turn the breakers off..

Now you are there because the home inspection report says that a GFCI receptacle in the basement bath is not working. You will need to turn the circuit on to test but the panel isn't marked.

So you are another one that's doing a complete electrical inspection on every home where the panel isn't labeled or is labeled incorrectly ( almost every home )?

First someone had to turn on the power for the home inspector , if I get a call from an agent I make sure the breakers are on before I go out .I will repeat I do not turn on breakers that I did not turn off.
Now if the agents says I turned them off go ahead and turn the one you need on to test you break out the pinger and identify the breaker that controls the circuit

 

[LarryFine]

The homeowner would be less liable - but not scott-free - than an electrician. The electrician knows, or should know, better. In this case he behaved like a homeowner.

So the homeowner should sue himself for part of the damages? I don't understand why the person who dropped the HVAC feed isn't completely responsible for what happened.

Look at it from the NEC's perspective: what would have been the compliant thing to do? Where does it say when turned-off breakers should not be turned on? (not a serious question)

I can't imagine anyone believing that the person who dropped the HVAC whip can in any way claim that whoever turns this power back on shares the blame for what happens.

There was a court-case in upstate NY where an electrician got killed by an Elastimold elbow. ... Instead of using a hot stick, he appears to grabbed it and got fried. ... The worker was faulted for performing the work unsafely.

The guy who died?

 

[LarryFine]

I would prepare a form to relieve your liability and have it signed by the Owner. Not unlike in many Service organizations, they fill out a form where they indicate the work they are going to perform, with the anticipated price and have all the disclaimers and conditions on that simplified Contract form - that's what it is - and have it signed by the Owner. Simple enough.

We have a not-responsible-for-work-by-others clause in our contract; would that cover us?

 

[petersonra]

Just heard on our local news of a minor house fire. It would seem that the electrician working on the water heater after he was done turned all the breakers back on. Well one of these breakers was feeding to the crawl space were an old A/C had been removed it arced causing a fire that did around $1000.00 of damage.

I bet he wishes he had taped off the breaker(s) that were already open.

 

[LarryFine]

What if the service complaint is that there is a breaker off? Would anyone say "I'm not going to turn it on unless you sign a release form. If you won't sign it, you'll have to turn it on yourself." Money without liability?

Then they do so, a fire starts, and the say "But he told me to turn it on!" Now they try to drag you into the fray, and you didn't even get to charge them anything. Liability without money?

I still insist the fault is 100% on whomever left the wires hanging. Short of removing them from the breaker, or removing the breaker itself, the loose end should have been connected to a box and the wires capped.

 

[Mr. Wizard]

What if the service complaint is that there is a breaker off? Would anyone say "I'm not going to turn it on unless you sign a release form. If you won't sign it, you'll have to turn it on yourself." Money without liability?

Then they do so, a fire starts, and the say "But he told me to turn it on!" Now they try to drag you into the fray, and you didn't even get to charge them anything. Liability without money?

I still insist the fault is 100% on whomever left the wires hanging. Short of removing them from the breaker, or removing the breaker itself, the loose end should have been connected to a box and the wires capped.

I agree that the person who cut the wires should have capped them off. But over many years and thousands of service calls, my hard and fast rule is if I didn't turn it off, I'm not turning it on. Unless that circuit is the one that I'm called out for, I leave it alone. Start flipping breakers on in an old house that have been off for who know how long is akin to opening Pandora's box. The EC may have accidently opened a circuit while removing the panel cover, but even then, he should have had the foresight to tag the open breakers - and leave them alone. Regardless if the wire was finished, capped off, direct short - whatever, the fact remains that the house probably would not have caught fire had the EC not closed breakers that he did not open. What if, by some bizarre occurance (many stories could begin here...) someone was under the house at that time working on that open circuit. The EC feels as though it is his duty to close the circuit, and now we have a potential loss of life. It may be a different story had the breaker been tripped, then the EC would recognize there may be a problem to be solved. But if the breaker handle had been moved maually to the off position, the EC had absolutely no business turning that breaker on.

 

[Mr. Wizard]

On rental properties and properties that are for sale they will turn all the breakers off to make sure that didn't miss anything. The agent or owner will not want to run all through the house to 5 bedrooms and 4 bathrooms just to make sure they didn't leave a fan running so if the panel is in the garage they will just turn the breakers off..

Now you are there because the home inspection report says that a GFCI receptacle in the basement bath is not working. You will need to turn the circuit on to test but the panel isn't marked.

So you are another one that's doing a complete electrical inspection on every home where the panel isn't labeled or is labeled incorrectly ( almost every home )?

Most property owners and property managment companies I have dealt with in the past will simply open the main breaker. Or have the POCO pull the meter if the property is anticipated to sit for any length of time.

 

[Mr. Wizard]

We have a not-responsible-for-work-by-others clause in our contract; would that cover us?

I have a clause very similar to that, and yes, it has got my butt out of the fire on more than one occasion.

 

[growler]

Most property owners and property managment companies I have dealt with in the past will simply open the main breaker. Or have the POCO pull the meter if the property is anticipated to sit for any length of time.

Yes they will simply open the main if the main breaker is in the garage or basement but if the main is out by the meter then most don't know where it's at or just don't want to bother so they turn off every single breaker in the panel.

Getting the POCO to pull the meter is not a real good idea around here for one thing it an invitation to vandals and if the power is off over six months in some areas there is a power on safety inspection ($$$$$$). Cheaper to pay the power bill.

 

[growler]

What if, by some bizarre occurance (many stories could begin here...) someone was under the house at that time working on that open circuit. The EC feels as though it is his duty to close the circuit, and now we have a potential loss of life.

It's called evolution, the guy gets a Darwin award and some smarter guy gets a job. :wink: A guy that does that kind of shoddy work should be removed from the gene pool anyway. Remember he is the dummy that really caused the fire, he doesn't care for his safety or that of others. If he did he wouldn't have left those wires hanging loose and he probably would have known the meaning of "lock out, tag out".

 

[growler]

the fact remains that the house probably would not have caught fire had the EC not closed breakers that he did not open.

Or the homeowner may have flipped it on by mistake late at night after drinking a quart of Jack Daniel's finest and then went to sleep and the whole family burned to death ( except the dog, the smart one ).

A breaker in the off position is no protection what so ever. The potential for accident is just to great. There are no provisions for a breaker to be left in the off position as a safety precaution for faulty wiring. If it's abandoned then it to be de-energized at the source.

 

[Rewire]

If I abandon a wire I wirenut the ends together both at the termination and in the panel after it is removed from the breaker that way if a dufuss undoes the wire nut and puts the wires back on a breaker it will trip when turned on.

 

[growler]

If I abandon a wire I wirenut the ends together both at the termination and in the panel after it is removed from the breaker that way if a dufuss undoes the wire nut and puts the wires back on a breaker it will trip when turned on.

Being honest I probably would have taken a couple minutes to see if this circuit was safe but I still think the other guy is at fault. I do wish we knew more and didn't have to guess at what actually happened.

An A/C unit in the crawl space doesn't sound right. I would "guess" it's the 120 V to the air handler. In an old house it has been known to feed other things, perhaped the light that the electician needed to work on the water heater or a receptacle. But this is only a possibility.

That's pretty much the method I use to make sure an abandoned circuit is not hooked up by accident. Wire nuting them togather makes it hard for someone to make a mistake.

I just hope I never burn anyone's house down , the thought does bother me at times. I think that's why this makes me so upset, people thinking that a breaker in the Off position is being safe.

 

[Mr. Wizard]

Or the homeowner may have flipped it on by mistake late at night after drinking a quart of Jack Daniel's finest and then went to sleep and the whole family burned to death ( except the dog, the smart one ).

A breaker in the off position is no protection what so ever. The potential for accident is just to great. There are no provisions for a breaker to be left in the off position as a safety precaution for faulty wiring. If it's abandoned then it to be de-energized at the source.

I couldn't agree more. I also agree about the dog being the smart one

 

[LarryFine]

What if, by some bizarre occurance (many stories could begin here...) someone was under the house at that time working on that open circuit.

Since you brought it up, isn't that what LOTO is all about? Who would you blame that scenario on?