Electric Fireplace in Bedroom?

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Re: Electric Fireplace in Bedroom?

To be able to access this receptacle one would have to remove the fire place that is in the bedroom. This means that the receptacle is accessible from the bedroom and now the requirements of 210.12 apply.
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Actually, no, they wouldn't have to, they could remove the fireplace in the other room. It is a wall about 36" thick with back to back fireplaces. The outlets are both in the center of this area inbetween both fireplaces.

I guess there's no right code answer for this. It's yet another AHJ call.

I'm sure I'll just end up putting one in just so I can sleep! (In MY Un-AFCI-Protected Bed Room!) :)

Dave
 
Re: Electric Fireplace in Bedroom?

Why do you keep calling it an outlet ? Slang for a receptacle.100 defines an outlet and in it there can be 3 prongs or wirenuts too ;) If within the bedroom it has to be afci protected just like anything else in a bedroom,like a smoke detector has to be afci protected.
 
Re: Electric Fireplace in Bedroom?

Allen,
I'm calling it an outlet because it is! The fireplace plugs into a receptacle, which is an outlet. The question is whether the location of the outlet is considered part of the bedroom. The location is In-between the the two rooms. The outlet is Inside the 36" inch deep wall that seperates the two rooms.
The question is...is this space part of the bedroom or part of the other room, or neither. It is equally accesible from both rooms by removing either one of the fireplaces.

Dave
 
Re: Electric Fireplace in Bedroom?

Originally posted by davedottcom:
...I could have just pulled a 12/3....mumble, mumble...

If you use Cutler Hammer loadcenters, you could have.
They have a 2-pole AFCI for this application.
I don't know about other brands.

...who the H@ll needs Heating fireplaces in Florida Anyway?...

My mom. I could be sweating and my mom will walk in wearing a sweater when I'm visiting.

...I'm sweating like a hooker on Dollar night for Pete's sake....

Thanx for the visual.
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Re: Electric Fireplace in Bedroom?

Stupid question: What is an "electric fireplace"?

I've only seen gas fireplaces with accessories to prewire. Never noticed a need for 2 20 amp circuits? :confused:

I'd say, the thing is a accessory for the bedroom, so supply it with an AFCI and forget about it. I'm not seeing the drama. (Aside from the marital stuff.)
 
Re: Electric Fireplace in Bedroom?

Stupid question: What is an "electric fireplace"?
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It's not a stupid question..it's a stupid fireplace! :) It is a fake fireplace that uses light to give the illusion of flames. It actually looks pretty cool. It has a heater also, the combined wattage is around 1500W.

Never noticed a need for 2 20 amp circuits?
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It only needs One circuit. But there are Two Fireplaces. Hence the second outlet.


I'd say, the thing is a accessory for the bedroom, so supply it with an AFCI and forget about it.
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I would agree it is an accessory to the bedroom, however that doesn't help. The NEC doesn't address accessory AFCI protection. It only addresses the LOCATION of the outlets that are required to be AFCI protected.

I'm not seeing the drama.
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George, Please don't take some of my Rediculous comments seriously. They are meant to be funny. I joke around A LOT...I'll try to use more :D when I'm joking!!! I can be a little on the "dry" side!


I just thought this was an interesting situation. And it's pretty obvious there is no NEC ruling on this yet. I'm NOT looking for a way to get out of putting in the AFCI, I'm just trying to point out that the NEC is not clear in this situation. Like I said, I'll probably put one on any way!

But the fact remains,
1)The outlet is Located in an "Unfinished" section of the structure. There is no drywall, no paint, no carpet.
2)The outlet is Located Within the walls.
3)The outlet is Not Readily Accesible.
4)The outlet is located in Dead space In Between and within the walls of 2 rooms, one is a bedroom and one is not.

Is this space I just described considered part of the bedroom or part of the other room or neither?

I can't explain it any better! :D

Thank You & Good morning!
:D

Dave
 
Re: Electric Fireplace in Bedroom?

Dave,

How does 400.8(5) not kick in? Is there a hand hole of some sort the permits reaching into the wall?

Isn't there a motor in the heater blower? Is there a unit switch that acts as a disconnect or is the cord at the receptacle the disconnect?

Edit typo - Al

[ March 17, 2005, 10:43 AM: Message edited by: al hildenbrand ]
 
Re: Electric Fireplace in Bedroom?

being Canadian I Dont have access to the NEC.Does a baseboard heater have to be AFCI'd or is it not an outlet.IMO the fireplace is a glorified heater.Nothing else will be able to be plugged in so WHY the AFCI?What is the intent of the AFCI....The fireplace isnt any more likely to start a fire from ARCs in the bedroom than it is in the living room.Here we are only required to protect the bedroom receptacles with Arc Faults.Not the light fixture ..not the smoke detector.Im not saying this is better but it does make more sence to me....why protect a smoke detector with an arc fault? :p
 
Re: Electric Fireplace in Bedroom?

I'm not even gonna say that I think the AFI requirement is extortion.
 
Re: Electric Fireplace in Bedroom?

How does 400.8(5) not kick in? Is there a hand hole of some sort the permits reaching into the wall?

Isn't there a motor in the heater blower? Is there a unit switch that acts as a disconnect or is the cord at the receptacle the disconnect?
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Al, The receptacle is not conceled by the walls, it is conceled by the unit itself. It IS "accessible" (as applied to wiring methods) by removing the unit, but NOT "readily accessible" and yes it has a small blower motor and the cord with the male plug is the "Means of Disconnect".
;)

Dave
 
Re: Electric Fireplace in Bedroom?

Originally posted by davedottcom:
Al, The receptacle is not conceled by the walls, it is conceled by the unit itself. It IS "accessible" (as applied to wiring methods) by removing the unit, but NOT "readily accessible" and yes it has a small blower motor and the cord with the male plug is the "Means of Disconnect".
;)

Dave [/QB]
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Here in lies your answer, (this that has been highlighted by bold) A ceiling fan box, light fixture box, smoke alarm box are all only accessible after removing the equipment. All these require Arc Fault Protection as will your fireplace.

To use the thinking that the receptacle outlet is protect from the bedroom because you can?t see it, well you can?t see the outlets as mentioned above either.
 
Re: Electric Fireplace in Bedroom?

Canadian, the best advice I can give you is do a search on AFCI's here, and you'll find out a lot of the sordid details of the stinkin' thing.

If the heater were on a 15 or 20 amp, 120V circuit in the bedroom, then yes, it would have to be AFCI-protected.
 
Re: Electric Fireplace in Bedroom?

Very good point JW!
But it wasn't me who said the comment about "not being able to see it".

The difference is that when you remove a ceiling fan and expose the outlet,it is clearly in the bedroom. But if you removed the fireplace and exposed the outlet, it is inside an unfinished area of the house beyond the finished walls of the bedroom.

I think the NEC should change the wording to:

All branch circuits that supply 125-volt, single phase, 15- and 20-ampere outlets installed in dwelling unit bedrooms (***and all outlets serving utilization equiptment located within the bedroom***) shall be protected by an arc-fault circuit interrupter listed to provide protection of the entire branch circuit.

Then it would be clear that if the equiptment is IN the bedroom it is required to be AFCI protected, even if the outlet is not.

Dave
 
Re: Electric Fireplace in Bedroom?

One, do we really need the AFCI in the first place? It's going to expand on it's own, without us egging it on. :D

Originally posted by davedottcom:
I think the NEC should change the wording to:

All branch circuits that supply 125-volt, single phase, 15- and 20-ampere outlets installed in dwelling unit bedrooms (***and all outlets serving utilization equipment located within the bedroom***) shall be protected by an arc-fault circuit interrupter listed to provide protection of the entire branch circuit.
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The way that is worded, we'll be buying 50 amp AFCI's for a zillion bucks. If you're bent on it, perhaps:
All branch circuits that supply 125-volt, single phase, 15- and 20-ampere outlets installed in dwelling unit bedrooms (and in permanently installed utilization equipment located in dwelling unit bedrooms) shall be protected by an arc-fault circuit interrupter listed to provide protection of the entire branch circuit.
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That would limit it back down to 15 and 20's.

But I think we all probably agree that this is not necessary, right...? :D
 
Re: Electric Fireplace in Bedroom?

As I see it eventually the writing on the walls will require all circuits to ge afci protected.We have a couple of homes out there that were covered with drywall before rough in inspection and had to meg all circuits and install afci breakers for entire house ;) :roll:
 
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