Electrical Engineering - Electrician certification

[loboesso]

Being an EC can have a wide variety of things that goes with it. Something that is not so much "electrical" about that title is the management of employees - some may not even be electrical professionals but still support the main efforts of the business, bidding, estimating, purchasing, sales, etc., where a journeyman or master electrician may still have some things to manage they likely are more directly associated with specific projects and less in general management of the company. Of course in smaller companies like mine, the owner is doing the CEO type tasks as well as apprentice type tasks on a daily basis.

Absolutely true!

So I guess it kind of depends on what you wish to gain by becoming an EC. I would think you would need at least 5 or more years of experience in that role (and not just an EC license holder that otherwise works basically as a master or journeyman for some other EC, they are out there) to gain much valuable experience from that position.[/QUOTE

My Intention is not to do EC work, but to understand better the Electrician job and work better with them, (if it happens that we need to work together).. I thought that it will be helpful to have some EC background/license if you are an EE(power). All of these idea comes, because the Technicians in the my field tend to like Engineers who either were technicians and know their tool or Eng. that are proactive and learned how our tool works.

I know might idea might be crazy, I am just trying to see and learned more of this field, since it is new to me... Therefore every experience that I read in these forums is helpful for me.

thanks

 

[Ingenieur]

I'm an engineer and proud of it
PE, grad degree, 30 years experience
I spent years in the field as a jr engineer (still spend much time there)

having said that I learned as much in the field from electricians as in school
especially the old school guys whose knowledge base rivals many engineers
many of these guys if they desired could be engineers if not for circumstance ( family, finances, etc)
you can spot these guys easily because they have respect for the engineering profession not the disdain shown by others

to this day when I go on site the first guy I want to see is the sr grey haired electrician
then the pm, project engineer, etc

although we have distinct duties we overlap as a team the goal being project success

learn as much as you can, do not limit yourself
i'm older and still pursuing my education
my co-workers think I'm goofy...homework at my advanced state of decrepitude lol

 

[kwired]

I'm an engineer and proud of it
PE, grad degree, 30 years experience
having said that I spent years in the field as a jr engineer (still spend much time there)

having said that I learned as much in the field from electricians as in school
especially the old school guys whose knowledge base rivals many engineers
many of these guys if they desired could be engineers if not for circumstance ( family, finances, etc)
you can spot these guys easily because they have respect for the engineering profession not the disdain shown by others

to this day when I go on site the first guy I want to see is the sr grey haired electrician
then the pm, project engineer, etc

although we have distinct duties we overlap as a team the goal being project success

learn as much as you can, do not limit yourself
i'm older and still pursuing my education
my co-workers think I'm goofy...homework at my advanced state of decrepitude lol

I respect engineers that respect the field electricians like you do. I can not stand the ones that think they know everything and you are not about to tell them something they don't know, even if they are wrong.

One that took the cake was an engineer on this site once told me I had no business getting involved with knowledge of basic electrical theory, I took that as more of a personal thing then a general attitude of all engineers, but have butted heads a few times with some POCO engineers, those being the ones that are true engineering degree recipients, some of the so called engineers for some of the small POCO's around here are just older more experienced linemen and have no engineering degree - they have been on both sides and are understanding of the installers problems.

 

[Ingenieur]

I respect engineers that respect the field electricians like you do. I can not stand the ones that think they know everything and you are not about to tell them something they don't know, even if they are wrong.

One that took the cake was an engineer on this site once told me I had no business getting involved with knowledge of basic electrical theory, I took that as more of a personal thing then a general attitude of all engineers, but have butted heads a few times with some POCO engineers, those being the ones that are true engineering degree recipients, some of the so called engineers for some of the small POCO's around here are just older more experienced linemen and have no engineering degree - they have been on both sides and are understanding of the installers problems.

WHAT I do is not what defines me
it is HOW I do it
I respect all until given a reason not to, and even then I try to give the benefit of the doubt and keep extending it
that makes me weak or a pushover in some eyes
induces less stress in mine

you meet 'know it alls' in every aspect of life
just the way it is
people need to feel superior
merely adequate suits me just fine I disappoint less often that way

 

[kwired]

you meet 'know it alls' in every aspect of life
just the way it is
people need to feel superior

True, but I find that many with an education level that is higher then an associate degree seem to want to prove they are smarter then everyone else, no matter what field they work in. Some even that have jobs that require little or no post secondary education. I think the schools they attend must brain wash them into thinking they are better then everyone else. The only decent ones are those that didn't fall for it.

 

[iceworm]

I have an electrical administrator's license. Probably similar to a Masters license in other states. And an engineering degree, and a PE ticket. Most all of my carreer - say 45 of the last 50 years - have been a field dog. I don't particular like design work. I don't particularly like being in an office.

As mentioned, 8000hrs for a journeyman's ticket is a significant investment when one is in one's 40s. I didn't do it when I was in my 20s because I invested the time in getting the engineering degree. I like the physics, I like the math, I really like the troubleshooting. Bending conduit, pulling wire - not so much.

Having an engineering degree doesn't mean one knows anything about engineering. If just means you have four years practice in successfuly studying and learning. Having a PE ticket doesn't mean that you know anything about engineering. It just means that you put in your time and managed to learn enough to pass the test.

However, without the degree, nobody will talk to you for the engineering jobs. And having the PE ticket means you get considered ahead of the 1000 kids just out of school. I'm pretty sure the PE ticket is the only reason I get jobs now - especially when you consider they could hire one of the kids for half what they pay me. The field crews like me, but once one steps up a couple levels of management, two things happen:

Management thinks that if they need engineering, they can go to the store and buy a comodity engineer. One is as good as another.
I'm pretty sure the top management never sees the effect of anything I do. It gets lost in the noise of all of us that do our jobs.​

So, my recomendation follows most of the previous posts:

• Engineering degree
• Pay attention to the techs, they have been staring at the stuff for the last thirty years. Not only do they know the issues, they likely have a good handle on the fixes.
• Check the state regulations and see if you can qualify to take a Masters test. The AHJ reps really like that. It think it makes them think you have some experience in understanding the tech side.
• Definitely get your PE. I recall only one drawing I have ever stamped in 25 years. I didn't need to stamp that one, but the company management wanted it. Most importantly the PE carries a lot of weight with the regulators. And that means the management wants to pay you the extra money.
• Field dogs don't get promoted. For some unfathomable reason management seems to think thet being mearly technically compent does not count as much as being promoted to low level management. Although why anyone would think that the skill set it takes to be a good engineer would have anything to do with being an effective manager completely baffles me.
• if you do want to head up the chain, and are not thoroughly discussed with school, consider getting an MBA - nights/coorespondence school. if you can do that, great. I can't. Can't even stand the thought of it. So I settled for less money - and I'm okay with that.

Can't advise you if you want to or not. Good luck

 

[Ingenieur]

True, but I find that many with an education level that is higher then an associate degree seem to want to prove they are smarter then everyone else, no matter what field they work in. Some even that have jobs that require little or no post secondary education. I think the schools they attend must brain wash them into thinking they are better then everyone else. The only decent ones are those that didn't fall for it.

smugness and arrogence are not educational credential dependent

a guy with an AS may feel 'better' than HS guy
a PhD > MS > BS and so on

military: Officer > non-comm > enlisted

a Harvard MD over a state school

2 HS drop outs: my (blank, religion political ideology, patriotism, ad infinitum) is 'better' than yours

it is the person that makes that elitist attitude
not what they do
equally distributed across all socio-economic-educational strata

me? Just a common knucklehead not a special or superior one

 

[gar]

160130-1526 EST

loboesso:

Pick an area that excites you. Some broad areas might be ---
Pure theory, experimentation, invention, application of theory to real things, creating new theories, discovering new methods, troubleshooting, working on old stuff, only working on new things, design, desk work, field work, an environment you like, power vs electronics, computers, communication, optics, getting your hands on real things, and work environment.

I am not a power engineer, but my uncle was. He grew up an outdoorsman and never really wanted to be tied to a desk. After graduation he started work at Detroit Edison. Two thirds of his career was as a field engineer in overhead lines. The last third as chief field engineer in underground lines. He was responsible for the installation of a large underground line that circled Detroit in the 1950s. I believe this was 345 kV. The end points I am not sure of, but these may have been associated with Monroe and St Claire. I don't believe underground would have been that entire distance. My uncle lived to 102 and the non-desk activity may have helped. So do consider environment.

While a student I worked at the U of M Electronic Defense Group (EDG), later named Cooley Electronics Lab. The first semester I was at the U of M I had a psychology class taught by Wilson P. Tanner. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detection_theory . Tanner worked for EDG and was conducting experiments on signal detectability. He ask the class if anyone wanted to be subjects in the experiments. Pay was something like a dollar per hour, possibly less when incentives were not in effect. I applied and became a subject.

Tanner and Swets, PhD students, were generating the test sequences using random number tables, a laborious process. Laborious because they wanted to change the probabilities of events. By the end of the semester Spike Tanner wanted me to work for him at EGD to develop an automatic true random number generator. Thus, he got me a job in the Electrical Engineering Department. An EE job via a Lit School prof.

I devekoped a machine named N. P. Psytar (Noise Programmed Psychophysical Tester and Recorder). Ted Birdsall conceived the name.

In 1955 I graduated and at EDG started on a project to improve an automotive ignition system. I had several students working for me. One of the EE profs came to me about a student that was failing and the student did not know if he wanted to stay in engineering. This student had only been exposed to class room work, and the idea was to have him work on our project to get some real world experience. Getting this practical experience completely turned around this student and he became an A, B student.

When troubleshooting machines in auto plants that had my equipment on the machine, or even machines without my equipment, I always found that I got the best information about the problem from the machine operators and job setters. Information by phone from a process engineer before I got to the plant could be completely unrelated to the actual problem. Any communication path can have a lot of noise.

The point of all this is that you really need to figure out what you want to do, what really turns you on.

.

 

[tom baker]

.

So I guess it kind of depends on what you wish to gain by becoming an EC. I would think you would need at least 5 or more years of experience in that role (and not just an EC license holder that otherwise works basically as a master or journeyman for some other EC, they are out there) to gain much valuable experience from that position.

So in that 5 years you could be come a master electrician, and not be lose income while becoming a EE. Get your electrical certification, work for 4 years, and then become a EE.

 

[loboesso]

I have an electrical administrator's license. Probably similar to a Masters license in other states. And an engineering degree, and a PE ticket. Most all of my carreer - say 45 of the last 50 years - have been a field dog. I don't particular like design work. I don't particularly like being in an office.

As mentioned, 8000hrs for a journeyman's ticket is a significant investment when one is in one's 40s. I didn't do it when I was in my 20s because I invested the time in getting the engineering degree. I like the physics, I like the math, I really like the troubleshooting. Bending conduit, pulling wire - not so much.

Having an engineering degree doesn't mean one knows anything about engineering. If just means you have four years practice in successfuly studying and learning. Having a PE ticket doesn't mean that you know anything about engineering. It just means that you put in your time and managed to learn enough to pass the test.

However, without the degree, nobody will talk to you for the engineering jobs. And having the PE ticket means you get considered ahead of the 1000 kids just out of school. I'm pretty sure the PE ticket is the only reason I get jobs now - especially when you consider they could hire one of the kids for half what they pay me. The field crews like me, but once one steps up a couple levels of management, two things happen:

Management thinks that if they need engineering, they can go to the store and buy a comodity engineer. One is as good as another.
I'm pretty sure the top management never sees the effect of anything I do. It gets lost in the noise of all of us that do our jobs.​

So, my recomendation follows most of the previous posts:

• Engineering degree
• Pay attention to the techs, they have been staring at the stuff for the last thirty years. Not only do they know the issues, they likely have a good handle on the fixes.
• Check the state regulations and see if you can qualify to take a Masters test. The AHJ reps really like that. It think it makes them think you have some experience in understanding the tech side.
• Definitely get your PE. I recall only one drawing I have ever stamped in 25 years. I didn't need to stamp that one, but the company management wanted it. Most importantly the PE carries a lot of weight with the regulators. And that means the management wants to pay you the extra money.
• Field dogs don't get promoted. For some unfathomable reason management seems to think thet being mearly technically compent does not count as much as being promoted to low level management. Although why anyone would think that the skill set it takes to be a good engineer would have anything to do with being an effective manager completely baffles me.
• if you do want to head up the chain, and are not thoroughly discussed with school, consider getting an MBA - nights/coorespondence school. if you can do that, great. I can't. Can't even stand the thought of it. So I settled for less money - and I'm okay with that.

Can't advise you if you want to or not. Good luck

I totally agree with you in every statement you make. I probably will not go for an MBA, just because I dont want to spent all my time in school. Currently the plan is to continue to do good in school and try to find a position (as a tech for now) in my current company(semi-conductors) in the electrical engineering department. Unfortunately they normally dont have position open as the manufacturing plant does.

 

[loboesso]

160130-1526 EST

loboesso:

Pick an area that excites you. Some broad areas might be ---
Pure theory, experimentation, invention, application of theory to real things, creating new theories, discovering new methods, troubleshooting, working on old stuff, only working on new things, design, desk work, field work, an environment you like, power vs electronics, computers, communication, optics, getting your hands on real things, and work environment.

I am not a power engineer, but my uncle was. He grew up an outdoorsman and never really wanted to be tied to a desk. After graduation he started work at Detroit Edison. Two thirds of his career was as a field engineer in overhead lines. The last third as chief field engineer in underground lines. He was responsible for the installation of a large underground line that circled Detroit in the 1950s. I believe this was 345 kV. The end points I am not sure of, but these may have been associated with Monroe and St Claire. I don't believe underground would have been that entire distance. My uncle lived to 102 and the non-desk activity may have helped. So do consider environment.

While a student I worked at the U of M Electronic Defense Group (EDG), later named Cooley Electronics Lab. The first semester I was at the U of M I had a psychology class taught by Wilson P. Tanner. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detection_theory . Tanner worked for EDG and was conducting experiments on signal detectability. He ask the class if anyone wanted to be subjects in the experiments. Pay was something like a dollar per hour, possibly less when incentives were not in effect. I applied and became a subject.

Tanner and Swets, PhD students, were generating the test sequences using random number tables, a laborious process. Laborious because they wanted to change the probabilities of events. By the end of the semester Spike Tanner wanted me to work for him at EGD to develop an automatic true random number generator. Thus, he got me a job in the Electrical Engineering Department. An EE job via a Lit School prof.

I devekoped a machine named N. P. Psytar (Noise Programmed Psychophysical Tester and Recorder). Ted Birdsall conceived the name.

In 1955 I graduated and at EDG started on a project to improve an automotive ignition system. I had several students working for me. One of the EE profs came to me about a student that was failing and the student did not know if he wanted to stay in engineering. This student had only been exposed to class room work, and the idea was to have him work on our project to get some real world experience. Getting this practical experience completely turned around this student and he became an A, B student.

When troubleshooting machines in auto plants that had my equipment on the machine, or even machines without my equipment, I always found that I got the best information about the problem from the machine operators and job setters. Information by phone from a process engineer before I got to the plant could be completely unrelated to the actual problem. Any communication path can have a lot of noise.

The point of all this is that you really need to figure out what you want to do, what really turns you on.

.

It might be pretty nice to developed a machine. I had design a couple of jigs for safety(loto) devices that we used at work and definitely feels good. I agree with you, that is why I look around in the forums to learned a little bit about EE work. I been finding out that EE is a very broad career, which is nice. At this point, I still have about 2 semesters to start taking courses in one direction or another.

Thanks again for all the feedback guys..

 

[jeremy.zinkofsky]

Former Licensed Commercial Journeyman Electrician (5 years in the trade) and current EE for a consultant engineering firm.

I kind of stumbled upon the path to becoming an engineer. I originally became and electrician because I needed a steady job and because I was always fascinated by electricity. At some point in my career I realized that I would be better off as an EE and went for it. I tried to work and go to school (for the first year of my EE degree) but as you know the classes are pretty time consuming so I quit electrical work and became a full-time student.

I can tell you from personal experience that (in the industry that I am in, MEP & Power Design engineering) being a former electrician only helped me in two ways.

1.) Getting a job! In the Consultant Engineering world, experience as an electrician sets you apart from other candidates as most firms do not have many engineers who have practical experience with what they are designing. However, being an electrician is meaningless to hiring managers in other fields (semiconductors for example) as it really has nothing to do with that work.

2.) Understanding what the numerous electrical devices & equipment does and how it is connected. I cannot imagine how difficult it must be for green EE's trying to design an electrical system in a building if they have never seen the equipment they are putting in their design. To be able to understand how lights are controlled and connected to switches, how a ground rod is installed, why pulling large cable through a small conduit is difficult, what switchgear does, etc. There are so many little things that can add up to a large amount of time and labor if they are not considered.

That is really all. I understand that you want to be an engineer with an electricians mind, but it just doesn't work that way. In the field you may be able to get away with cutting a corner here and there just to pass an inspection (We've all done it!). But as an engineer you have to be far more responsible and detailed. There are clear code and design constraints, not to mention quality reviews. The entire process is different. You may know that a certain aspect of what you specify in a design is way to conservative and would be difficult to accomplish by the electricians but you may not have a choice. You will have to design according to the minimum requirements of all relevant building codes and/or the AHJ.

So, my advice to you:

1.) Work as an engineer, get your EIT, get your PE and any other certifications that are relevant to you.

2.) Learn the construction process by picking the brain of the project engineers around you. You can help out the electricians far more by gaining insight into how to respond to RFI's, Submittals, project phasing, budget, etc. As I said before, they have to install what you design and what you design will almost always be far to conservative. But if you can make the construction move along seemlessly, that's a win for everyone.

3.) Study up on electrical equipment catalogs and attend every lunch & learn you can, irregardless of discipline. As I said before, understanding what you are installing is 75% of the battle.

 

[Chamuit]

In Arizona, there are no apprentice, journeyman or master licenses. Basically, all there is is the Electrical Contractor license, you can get a residential, commercial or combo (R-11, C-11, CR11.) When I got mine (CR-11), you had to have 3 years of verifiable experience (both commercial and residential, separately) and had to pass a trade and business exam. I failed the business part first time by 1% and had to take it a second time. Unless you wanted to do contracting, I'm not sure what benefit it would be to you. You might want to hook up with a contractor and help/work on the weekends to gain hands on experience, even if it's just being a grunt. The familiarity with materials and equipment, even tools, used in projects will be worth the effort.

Just this last week, I was talking to my wife about working on an EE degree and taking a different tack in life from what I am doing now. This thread has been a good read.