Electrical Hazards in the Real World!
- Thread starter joe tedesco
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joe tedesco
Senior Member
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- Boston, Massachusetts
Re: Electrical Hazards in the Real World!
http://www.nfpa.org/Codes/NFPA_Codes_and_Standards/List_of_NFPA_documents/list_of_folders.asp
If you look at this link you will find most of the NFPA Standards, Documents, and Guides with their contents, Look at the 70 series, 110, 780, etc., and browse the others , there are many rules that suggest the items we have discussed here.
That's my point, most of the other standards that have something to do with building include a rule or recommendation to removed wiring not used or where it is hazardous.
Maybe the word "abandoned" is not the correct word, so it may be necessary to develop a new Guide or Standard.
The NFPA Publishes 70B and it covers Electrical Equipment Maintenance.
http://www.nfpa.org/Codes/NFPA_Codes_and_Standards/List_of_NFPA_documents/list_of_folders.asp
If you look at this link you will find most of the NFPA Standards, Documents, and Guides with their contents, Look at the 70 series, 110, 780, etc., and browse the others , there are many rules that suggest the items we have discussed here.
That's my point, most of the other standards that have something to do with building include a rule or recommendation to removed wiring not used or where it is hazardous.
Maybe the word "abandoned" is not the correct word, so it may be necessary to develop a new Guide or Standard.
russ
Senior Member
- Location
- Burbank IL
Re: Electrical Hazards in the Real World!
Joe
Obsolete might be a good word.
Also if Article 80 is adopted in an area 80.1(4) includes the word maintenance.
Joe
Obsolete might be a good word.
Also if Article 80 is adopted in an area 80.1(4) includes the word maintenance.
russ
Senior Member
- Location
- Burbank IL
Re: Electrical Hazards in the Real World!
Obsolete, and not in use!
Sometimes you have to hold the inspector or contractors hand
, me included.
Obsolete, and not in use!
Sometimes you have to hold the inspector or contractors hand
, me included.
joe tedesco
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, Massachusetts
Re: Electrical Hazards in the Real World!
Thanks Russ:
I will check that out, and see how it might lead to a new title for a new book or standard.
"Obsolete Electrical Equipment Removal"
or ?? Suggestions anyone?
Here's a favorite of mine that was published in EC&M
"DEATH of a DISCONNECT"
Thanks Russ:
I will check that out, and see how it might lead to a new title for a new book or standard.
"Obsolete Electrical Equipment Removal"
or ?? Suggestions anyone?
Here's a favorite of mine that was published in EC&M
"DEATH of a DISCONNECT"
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: Electrical Hazards in the Real World!
Because the NEC is not retroactive, and is for new work, it is not the forum for 'abandoned', 'obsolete', or any of those types of situations.
Lets let the NEC focus on it's purpose, and look for another way to tackle this evergrowing problem.
I had mentioned insurance companies as one avenue, but public awareness mixed with the insurance company angle might work. It will cost someone money and time (coupled with a lot of patience and guile) to start working this into a workable policy.
Joe, you are obviously possessed with having something done about this, but as I have said, you need to find a different angle. Maybe going to contractor meetings and start showing them how there is money to be made starting this is one angle. Just thinking out loud.
Pierre
Because the NEC is not retroactive, and is for new work, it is not the forum for 'abandoned', 'obsolete', or any of those types of situations.
Lets let the NEC focus on it's purpose, and look for another way to tackle this evergrowing problem.
I had mentioned insurance companies as one avenue, but public awareness mixed with the insurance company angle might work. It will cost someone money and time (coupled with a lot of patience and guile) to start working this into a workable policy.
Joe, you are obviously possessed with having something done about this, but as I have said, you need to find a different angle. Maybe going to contractor meetings and start showing them how there is money to be made starting this is one angle. Just thinking out loud.
Pierre
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: Electrical Hazards in the Real World!
Russ,
Don
Russ,
In Illinois Article 80 can never be adopted because many of the issues covered in that article are covered by state law. The local adoption of Article 80 would be an attempt to supersede state law and be ruled invalid. I would expect that this is the same in some other states.
Don
russ
Senior Member
- Location
- Burbank IL
Re: Electrical Hazards in the Real World!
Don:
I have no idea what parts of Article 80 conflict with state laws in Illinois, I guess because I don't enforce the NEC.
Of coarse it could be just because there's a lot I don't know.
I will say that most of what is in article 80, is enforced in most local jurisdictions already.
They may not have adopted Article 80, but they do have other ordinances that cover the most of same things.
Don:
I have no idea what parts of Article 80 conflict with state laws in Illinois, I guess because I don't enforce the NEC.
Of coarse it could be just because there's a lot I don't know.
I will say that most of what is in article 80, is enforced in most local jurisdictions already.
They may not have adopted Article 80, but they do have other ordinances that cover the most of same things.
russ
Senior Member
- Location
- Burbank IL
Re: Electrical Hazards in the Real World!
Pierre
Do you allow the old service equipment to be left on a building after a new one is installed.
If new A/C units were installed would the old wiring and disconnects be allowed to stay.
I'm just curious, because it never dawned on me that it should not be removed.
Pierre
Do you allow the old service equipment to be left on a building after a new one is installed.
If new A/C units were installed would the old wiring and disconnects be allowed to stay.
I'm just curious, because it never dawned on me that it should not be removed.
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: Electrical Hazards in the Real World!
Russ
I sort of had to think for a minute after reading your post. I have never come across a service upgrade where the old (existing)equipment was still in place. To answer your question, if the equipment is not energized and left in place, I do not believe I could ask them to remove it, even though I would like to.
Thinking about it, I have come across abandoned boxes, etc... and have not asked to have them removed.
Pierre
Russ
I sort of had to think for a minute after reading your post. I have never come across a service upgrade where the old (existing)equipment was still in place. To answer your question, if the equipment is not energized and left in place, I do not believe I could ask them to remove it, even though I would like to.
Thinking about it, I have come across abandoned boxes, etc... and have not asked to have them removed.
Pierre
hurk27
Senior Member
- Location
- Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
Re: Electrical Hazards in the Real World!
Many times I have left the old service when we relocated the new one, because if the old service was removed the area of siding would be open to water damage untill the home owner had a sider to cover it up. I will tell the home owner that the old service can be removed when he is ready to have a sider fix the siding. as for replacing all the electric when the AC unit is replaced I never herd of that. That is unless it is in bad condition
Many times I have left the old service when we relocated the new one, because if the old service was removed the area of siding would be open to water damage untill the home owner had a sider to cover it up. I will tell the home owner that the old service can be removed when he is ready to have a sider fix the siding. as for replacing all the electric when the AC unit is replaced I never herd of that. That is unless it is in bad condition
Re: Electrical Hazards in the Real World!
I do alot of work for a major resturant chain, and every few years the state does a inspection. We get alot of work out of these inspections because they usually find the open pole lights outside, along with open j-boxs and anything unsafe. The resturant has 30 days to fix these problems or show that it is in the works(IE permit pulled). These inspections are done by a building inspector.
I do alot of work for a major resturant chain, and every few years the state does a inspection. We get alot of work out of these inspections because they usually find the open pole lights outside, along with open j-boxs and anything unsafe. The resturant has 30 days to fix these problems or show that it is in the works(IE permit pulled). These inspections are done by a building inspector.
Re: Electrical Hazards in the Real World!
several of the posters have brought up related issues to the unforeseen consequences area and i will add a small list as well.
I think as others have also pointed out that the big problems arise from grouping different electrical conditions under one article, or amendment. Even if the NEC were to write an article concerning this it would have to be done for the different situations and conditions. This holds true if it were added to the maintenance code.
1. who gets to say that the wiring is abandoned? What are the actual criteria that separate and define abandoned wiring that should be removed, from wiring that may be not so abandoned. This will be, if implemented, administered by bureau crats like me, and others with little electrical experience, and of course the fanatics as well as the misreading fanatics. It will be adjudicated in courts by laymen, with experts of all ilks witnessing.
2. who is responsible for the wiring? The owner or previous owners, current electrical contractor.
3. I have not looked it up but was always taught that you had to do wire pulls in one piece, that you could not pull over other wires as it abraded them ( creating a hazard ), so how do the wires get removed or are the portions of wire ways that contain other wires to be rewired????? ( could you see the contract, add a light $465,000, just to be safe).
4. does the wiring that is to be considered abandoned include the wireways, boxes, equipment, supporting devices? many of these are incorporated into the structure, roofing, plaster, etc.???
5. Is there a difference in wiring that is abandoned (assuming that "abandoned" gets defined) that is energized and wiring that is not?
Separating unused wiring from this would make sense as there are many of us who believe that it may be used in the future. ( I was the kind of electrician that left many flexible conduits and feeders extra long for future remodeling, as i did so much of it ). There are too many conditions where future wiring is provided, unused, for whatever the future brings.
But the real issues involve damaged and hazardous wiring. All of Joe's pictures show damaged wiring, not abandoned or unused wiring. here are some of the questions that seem applicable to writing a blanket amendment to any of the codes.
1. damaged wiring may be hazardous, and hazardous may be damaged, but they are not the same. Is this article going to go after both groups, damaged and hazardous, or only when they occur together. If you want to argue that all damaged wiring is hazardous, go ahead as it is not self evident. Even where the damaged wiring poses some hazard to someone, there is a line between needing attention and needing immediate attention. Is the homeowners broken porch lite going to fall under the same rules as fallen distribution lines, energized metal in public ways?
2. are we not really talking about requiring repair or removal of the hazard, not the wiring.
3. doesthis not fall under already existing codes for the removal of public hazards. Most of the pictures shown depict wiring that needed repair, not removal.
Joe: are you really talking about the abatement of electrical hazards. I agree that this should be implemented in a sensible fashion, if it already has not been done, but not in the NEC.
Paul
several of the posters have brought up related issues to the unforeseen consequences area and i will add a small list as well.
I think as others have also pointed out that the big problems arise from grouping different electrical conditions under one article, or amendment. Even if the NEC were to write an article concerning this it would have to be done for the different situations and conditions. This holds true if it were added to the maintenance code.
1. who gets to say that the wiring is abandoned? What are the actual criteria that separate and define abandoned wiring that should be removed, from wiring that may be not so abandoned. This will be, if implemented, administered by bureau crats like me, and others with little electrical experience, and of course the fanatics as well as the misreading fanatics. It will be adjudicated in courts by laymen, with experts of all ilks witnessing.
2. who is responsible for the wiring? The owner or previous owners, current electrical contractor.
3. I have not looked it up but was always taught that you had to do wire pulls in one piece, that you could not pull over other wires as it abraded them ( creating a hazard ), so how do the wires get removed or are the portions of wire ways that contain other wires to be rewired????? ( could you see the contract, add a light $465,000, just to be safe).
4. does the wiring that is to be considered abandoned include the wireways, boxes, equipment, supporting devices? many of these are incorporated into the structure, roofing, plaster, etc.???
5. Is there a difference in wiring that is abandoned (assuming that "abandoned" gets defined) that is energized and wiring that is not?
Separating unused wiring from this would make sense as there are many of us who believe that it may be used in the future. ( I was the kind of electrician that left many flexible conduits and feeders extra long for future remodeling, as i did so much of it ). There are too many conditions where future wiring is provided, unused, for whatever the future brings.
But the real issues involve damaged and hazardous wiring. All of Joe's pictures show damaged wiring, not abandoned or unused wiring. here are some of the questions that seem applicable to writing a blanket amendment to any of the codes.
1. damaged wiring may be hazardous, and hazardous may be damaged, but they are not the same. Is this article going to go after both groups, damaged and hazardous, or only when they occur together. If you want to argue that all damaged wiring is hazardous, go ahead as it is not self evident. Even where the damaged wiring poses some hazard to someone, there is a line between needing attention and needing immediate attention. Is the homeowners broken porch lite going to fall under the same rules as fallen distribution lines, energized metal in public ways?
2. are we not really talking about requiring repair or removal of the hazard, not the wiring.
3. doesthis not fall under already existing codes for the removal of public hazards. Most of the pictures shown depict wiring that needed repair, not removal.
Joe: are you really talking about the abatement of electrical hazards. I agree that this should be implemented in a sensible fashion, if it already has not been done, but not in the NEC.
Paul
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Electrical Hazards in the Real World!
Paul that is great.
I feel very much like you do, to much room for abuse of authority with something like this.
Bob
Paul that is great.
I feel very much like you do, to much room for abuse of authority with something like this.
Bob
russ
Senior Member
- Location
- Burbank IL
Re: Electrical Hazards in the Real World!
Wayne the A/C comment was just hypothetical.
I should of said, relocated to another area in the rear of a house or maybe a roof top location on a commercial building.
I would prefer to agree with Joe T., that obsolete wiring should be removed.
When installing new to replace old, the unused old should be removed.
Wayne the A/C comment was just hypothetical.
I should of said, relocated to another area in the rear of a house or maybe a roof top location on a commercial building.
I would prefer to agree with Joe T., that obsolete wiring should be removed.
When installing new to replace old, the unused old should be removed.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Electrical Hazards in the Real World!
If it is safely de-energized and the customer does not want to pay for it's removal why should the NEC force it?
luke warmwater
Senior Member
Re: Electrical Hazards in the Real World!
Well how 'bout this:
We work for a G.C. who owns some mini-malls. When a tenant enters a vacant storefront, they will hire whoever to do the electrical work. This usually involves removing 2x4 lay-in lights.
After the new tenant moves in, at some point the'll be inspected by the Fire Marshall. The #1 top-ten item is missing k.o.'s in j-boxes above the ceiling. (caused by the prior electrician removing fixture whips)
The #2 item is wires not terminated above ceiling.(caused by prior electrician removing fixture, and leaving whip above ceiling)
Now, who is responsible?
Well how 'bout this:
We work for a G.C. who owns some mini-malls. When a tenant enters a vacant storefront, they will hire whoever to do the electrical work. This usually involves removing 2x4 lay-in lights.
After the new tenant moves in, at some point the'll be inspected by the Fire Marshall. The #1 top-ten item is missing k.o.'s in j-boxes above the ceiling. (caused by the prior electrician removing fixture whips)
The #2 item is wires not terminated above ceiling.(caused by prior electrician removing fixture, and leaving whip above ceiling)
Now, who is responsible?
Re: Electrical Hazards in the Real World!
I've got a question, (actualy a shorter version of Pauls post) where would we stop the removal, at the conductors and devices, or all the way to the conduit and associated pieces?
Would this stop us from installing "future" conduit and conductors left in areas to be accessed later (or never).
Roger
[ May 31, 2004, 09:25 PM: Message edited by: roger ]
I've got a question, (actualy a shorter version of Pauls post) where would we stop the removal, at the conductors and devices, or all the way to the conduit and associated pieces?
Would this stop us from installing "future" conduit and conductors left in areas to be accessed later (or never).
Roger
[ May 31, 2004, 09:25 PM: Message edited by: roger ]
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