Electrical panel torque requirements

[cowboyjwc]

i have always considered the inspector to be an adjunct to my work, we both want a compliant instal, which will by definition be safe.
torque screwdriver; https://www.kctoolco.com/wiha-28791...MI7_ma9oyC2QIVBbXACh2P9Ae1EAQYASABEgLIHfD_BwE

Most, if not all, contractors forget that we work for them, they paid us to come to their job and give it a second set of eyes, we are actually one of the team. Never have quite understood where the us vs them came from.

As for the letter, we don't keep a lot of that stuff in our files, but some do, so if it goes to court the inspector is on the hook as well, he simply shows that piece of paper to the judge and bang, no longer responsible.

 

[steve66]

That paperwork that falls on the floor will have the torque spec. or it can be looked up.
Make a torque sheet in word, pan. id name, lines with ft/lbs or newton meters whatever, line to write the tool number in, line for tool torque qc date and renew date (oops that could be hard), line for if two man verified torque, have the men fill them out, sign initial .
We use them all the time in industrial.
Can't give you a copy they are federal documents,but you can make your own.

Yes, I know some clients and people want the full paperwork trail.

But if the inspector just wants a letter that says "We torqued the lugs to specs." so he doesn't have any liability, that's exactly what I would give him. I wouldn't take the time to look up specs, or have two people recheck readings and write them down.

No form necessary. Just type "We torqued the lugs to specs", print it on letterhead, sign it and da-da.

If you wanted it to look a little more professional, you could add the location, date, panel names, names of people doing the work, and/or a few other filler details.

 

[nmorgan]

But what does writing such information down do? If you lied on your report it is totally meaningless - but inspector accepts it anyway - the whole idea is plain stupid IMO.

If that connection fails sometime down the road - who knows or cares if it was properly tightened in the first place?

If it fails while still under your warranty (whether you properly tightened it or not) that is between you and the owner, inspector will likely never know unless the repair requires inspection - here it generally wouldn't if just swapping a failed part for a same replacement.

The documented tightening specs, whether accurate or not, releases the JHA from being liable if the place burns down. We can't be there to witness every turn of every wire nut, but we are held responsible for these things. If the building burned down and it went to court over the lugs, the JHA would pull out the paper saying that the lugs were tightened to spec, then they would turn to the contractor asking why the building still burned down even though everything was done to code. THEN the contractor would be held responsible. People will sue anyone and everyone they can if they feel they have been wronged, so if the JHA wants to cover his own ass, I don't think that's too much to ask.

 

[FionaZuppa]

The documented tightening specs, whether accurate or not, releases the JHA from being liable if the place burns down. We can't be there to witness every turn of every wire nut, but we are held responsible for these things. If the building burned down and it went to court over the lugs, the JHA would pull out the paper saying that the lugs were tightened to spec, then they would turn to the contractor asking why the building still burned down even though everything was done to code. THEN the contractor would be held responsible. People will sue anyone and everyone they can if they feel they have been wronged, so if the JHA wants to cover his own ass, I don't think that's too much to ask.

who watches a contractor using a torq device? many zip through installations. when AHJ guy comes "yep, sure did, here's my tool". so now you have AHJ and contractor free from liability.

if it requires special torq'ing then the AHJ guy should be there as a witness to the work. how often does that happen?

does the AHJ review all the specs of every item of an installation when in permitting phase? likely not. will some catch a special item in the list, maybe.

the answer is, do not rely on the human, if it requires a certain torq on the fitting then design a fitting that applies the right torq after inserting the mating components, like spring loaded captive connectors, thus all that is needed is maybe the special tool to make the connection, etc.

 

[rudiseldb]

who watches a contractor using a torq device? many zip through installations. when AHJ guy comes "yep, sure did, here's my tool". so now you have AHJ and contractor free from liability.

if it requires special torq'ing then the AHJ guy should be there as a witness to the work. how often does that happen?

does the AHJ review all the specs of every item of an installation when in permitting phase? likely not. will some catch a special item in the list, maybe.

the answer is, do not rely on the human, if it requires a certain torq on the fitting then design a fitting that applies the right torq after inserting the mating components, like spring loaded captive connectors, thus all that is needed is maybe the special tool to make the connection, etc.

I am the AHJ I’m sorry sorry you seem to think so little of us. I guess the way I’m reading your writing. You may be a great wireman but some of us are great inspectors. A lot of us take our responsibility very seriously. I’m not out their to busy your butt....but I will hold you accountable...as I should. We constantly deal with crooks...unlicensed individuals and down bad people. I suggest if you can come with us to see our side. I treat every contractor respectfully, spend hours training and do everything I can to help them. Don’t judge...I don’t


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[kwired]

Yes, I know some clients and people want the full paperwork trail.

But if the inspector just wants a letter that says "We torqued the lugs to specs." so he doesn't have any liability, that's exactly what I would give him. I wouldn't take the time to look up specs, or have two people recheck readings and write them down.

No form necessary. Just type "We torqued the lugs to specs", print it on letterhead, sign it and da-da.

If you wanted it to look a little more professional, you could add the location, date, panel names, names of people doing the work, and/or a few other filler details.

Also give inspector a report that just says "installed in accordance with 2017 NEC" and you are both off the hook for liability - right? Inspector don't even need to look at anything and cans spend an hour or so doing his own thing before his next appointment

The documented tightening specs, whether accurate or not, releases the JHA from being liable if the place burns down. We can't be there to witness every turn of every wire nut, but we are held responsible for these things. If the building burned down and it went to court over the lugs, the JHA would pull out the paper saying that the lugs were tightened to spec, then they would turn to the contractor asking why the building still burned down even though everything was done to code. THEN the contractor would be held responsible. People will sue anyone and everyone they can if they feel they have been wronged, so if the JHA wants to cover his own ass, I don't think that's too much to ask.

AHJ's are as a general rule immune to liability unless gross negligence can be proven, seems pointless to file such documents.

who watches a contractor using a torq device? many zip through installations. when AHJ guy comes "yep, sure did, here's my tool". so now you have AHJ and contractor free from liability..

Yep, free from liability. If place burns down you still might get dragged into lawsuit even if you have evidence showing you did things correctly.

Where do we stop? Better document details of every switch or receptacle terminal tightening torque as well just in case. Hot terminal on a switch or receptacle scares me more then on a circuit breaker when it comes to likelihood of starting fires, there is just so many more of them out there to potentially be too loose, installers seem to be more careful about getting a breaker terminal tight even if not using a torque measuring device.

 

[sameguy]

In court he with the most repetitive documents has a better chance to win.
It's fast, looks pro and could be used as a sales tool about your qc program.
Had a lighting supplier give the wrong amps on a design build, on trim out started tripping breakers customers moving in; we fixed it. When the head bean counter asked why we were pulling new wire, they saw me with my amprobe clamped on wires, I told them it was part of our qc procedure and had caught some misinformation by the vendor we were fixing it and was just part of our standard qc check we do. All bs. About 6 months later picked up a no bid job from them, they trusted us!
Sell the owner a maintenance contract that includes torque check, we had a junk yard hammer mill we would low ohm, clean, torque, on an annual one day shutdown.
Always look for the up sell.

 

[FionaZuppa]

I am the AHJ I’m sorry sorry you seem to think so little of us. I guess the way I’m reading your writing. You may be a great wireman but some of us are great inspectors. A lot of us take our responsibility very seriously. I’m not out their to busy your butt....but I will hold you accountable...as I should. We constantly deal with crooks...unlicensed individuals and down bad people. I suggest if you can come with us to see our side. I treat every contractor respectfully, spend hours training and do everything I can to help them. Don’t judge...I don’t


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

has nothing to do with inspectors.
you do your job, thats good, some inspectors dont do the job very well.
what i mean is, how do you know what calls for special torq'ing? and then how would you even inspect that?
unless you watch the tool in use, from the inspector view, torq specs are rather useless, no?

if the lug calls for 40lb-ft of torq and the place burns to the ground because someone said the lug was loose, and i show you my 1% torq wrench that sits in my truck, you hold who liable? i would think the AHJ has the liability to verify that it was done right, but i just do not see how unless the inspector is there to watch, and possibly verify the certification of the tool being used.

most of electrical work is best effort. i have never really seen an inspector do much more than visual inspections, and not just on electrical work (less a gfi or ocpd test). yep, the wire caps are on, but you cant touch them, you might screw up the torq. yep, the screw in ocpd looks like its holding that wire tight, but the installer put +120% torq on the screw, yet you cant test that. maybe wire nuts should be banned in favor of Wago? you could at least verify that the Wago levers were pushed all the way closed, etc.

would knurled or V groove spring-clamp clamshell connectors be a good thing on ocpd's, you just strip wire and then push it into the clamshell, and the spring applies the proper force to hold/contact the wire. no torq guessing, no torq tool certs, no worrying about if the right torq was even applied etc etc.

anyways, its like laws that are impossible to enforce. so, happy torq'ing.