Electrical theory help please

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hardworkingstiff

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Wilmington, NC
I'm a construction and controls guy mostly. I am light on understanding the internal working of a motor. What I think I know is you have 3 sets of windings in a 3-phase motor and 2 or 4 sets in a single-phase motor. If you have 4 sets in a single-phase motor, you wire them in 2 pairs. Single-phase motors need something (a capacitor?) to get them to start rotating in the desired direction. 3-phase will rotate in the direction of the rotation as connected.

The following examples assume an unloaded motor.

Anyway, if I'm even close to being correct, If you were to disable (disconnect) the capacitor (or whatever guides the single-phase motor to start in the desired rotation) and connected the motor to 120-volts single-phase service, the motor would just sit still and humm when power was applied.

If you were to wire 1/2 of the windings to A-phase/neutral and the other half to B-phase/neutral (120/240-volt 1-phase service), the motor would still just sit and humm when power was applied.

What would the motor do when power is applied if you connected 1/2 of the windings to A-phase/neutral and the other half to B-phase/neutral (208/120-volt 1-phase service)? Would the motor just sit and humm, or would the motor try to turn with the two "hots" not being 180-degrees out of phase in reference to neutral?
 
hardworkingstiff said:
... Single-phase motors need something (a capacitor?) to get them to start rotating in the desired direction. 3-phase will rotate in the direction of the rotation as connected.

No a capicitor fires to make up the absense of voltage in a single volt cycle.
hardworkingstiff said:
The following examples assume an unloaded motor.

Anyway, if I'm even close to being correct, If you were to disable (disconnect) the capacitor (or whatever guides the single-phase motor to start in the desired rotation)

No a capicitor only fires in one direction and that from source voltage.

hardworkingstiff said:
and connected the motor to 120-volts single-phase service, the motor would just sit still and humm when power was applied.

No its sit there casue it can't rotate to get over missing the Cap, that provides the missing power to turn the shaft.

hardworkingstiff said:
If you were to wire 1/2 of the windings to A-phase/neutral and the other half to B-phase/neutral (120/240-volt 1-phase service), the motor would still just sit and humm when power was applied.
See above, and how does one apply half voltage? Were all parallel service...
hardworkingstiff said:
What would the motor do when power is applied if you connected 1/2 of the windings to A-phase/neutral and the other half to B-phase/neutral (208/120-volt 1-phase service)? Would the motor just sit and humm, or would the motor try to turn with the two "hots" not being 180-degrees out of phase in reference to neutral?
As odd as it seems think of the Electron chasing the magnetic force, if it ain't turning its hmmm, the second by product of applied work is Sound, heat is the first one...
edit in Color
 
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hardworkingstiff said:
I'm a construction and controls guy mostly. I am light on understanding the internal working of a motor. What I think I know is you have 3 sets of windings in a 3-phase motor and 2 or 4 sets in a single-phase motor. If you have 4 sets in a single-phase motor, you wire them in 2 pairs. Single-phase motors need something (a capacitor?) to get them to start rotating in the desired direction. 3-phase will rotate in the direction of the rotation as connected.

The following examples assume an unloaded motor.

Anyway, if I'm even close to being correct, If you were to disable (disconnect) the capacitor (or whatever guides the single-phase motor to start in the desired rotation) and connected the motor to 120-volts single-phase service, the motor would just sit still and humm when power was applied.

Yes, it would not rotate, but you can spin the rotor one way or the other, and the motor would run like a split-phase.

If you were to wire 1/2 of the windings to A-phase/neutral and the other half to B-phase/neutral (120/240-volt 1-phase service), the motor would still just sit and humm when power was applied.

The motor would sit there and hum a tune.

What would the motor do when power is applied if you connected 1/2 of the windings to A-phase/neutral and the other half to B-phase/neutral (208/120-volt 1-phase service)? Would the motor just sit and humm, or would the motor try to turn with the two "hots" not being 180-degrees out of phase in reference to neutral?

The motor would run on two phases.

The capacitor provides a bit of phase shift in the second set of windings which makes it think it is a two-phase motor. There are many variations of this scheme. Fan motors tend to have a cap permanently wired into the second set of windings. Compressors often use two caps, a 'run" capacitor in the circuit permanently and a "start" capacitor which is controlled by a start relay.

Let me admit, I am no motor expert, but I think we have a couple on this forum.
 
single vs. two phase

single vs. two phase

:confused: seems like people are confusing single phase with two phase :confused:
 
Denis said:
:confused: seems like people are confusing single phase with two phase :confused:

The single phase system comprises Line 1, Neutral, and Line 2. It is incorrect to call L1 and L2 "phases", although we know what is meant.

I have never done it, but I would expect a 120V capacitor run motor to run off two phases of a 120/208 wye, but it might smoke a bit.
 
Denis said:
:confused: seems like people are confusing single phase with two phase :confused:
The opening post's core question is not so much about multi-phase or single phase, as it is about how a magnetic field can turn the shaft of a motor.
hardworkingstiff said:
What would the motor do when power is applied if you connected 1/2 of the windings to A-phase/neutral and the other half to B-phase/neutral (208/120-volt 1-phase service)? Would the motor just sit and humm, or would the motor try to turn with the two "hots" not being 180-degrees out of phase in reference to neutral?
The 208/120-volt comes from an open wye connection to 2 of 3 3? lines.

There's no 2? in this question.
 
rattus said:
I have never done it, but I would expect a 120V capacitor run motor to run off two phases of a 120/208 wye, but it might smoke a bit.
:)

To me, the interesting image is of the magnetic field not bouncing back and forth (180?) but rather having the rotation of a 3? field with one pole, of three, missing. In a simplification, the 120? separation provides a better torque to turn the armature, than a capacitor shifted pole does. The capacitor shift will be less than 90?.
 
al hildenbrand said:
:)

To me, the interesting image is of the magnetic field not bouncing back and forth (180?) but rather having the rotation of a 3? field with one pole, of three, missing. In a simplification, the 120? separation provides a better torque to turn the armature, than a capacitor shifted pole does. The capacitor shift will be less than 90?.

Al,
You hit on the reason I started this thread. I've seen posted that 208/120-volt single-phase service is a single-phase service. I disagree and don't believe it is accurate to call it a single-phase service. If you read some of the posts here (#37 & #38) http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?p=816073#post816073
you will see other arguements that it is incorrect to call a service fed by 2 legs of a 3-phase transformer a single-phase service.
 
Lou I am going to throw something out and it may be wrong.

A single phase motor supplied from a 120/240 single phase source will see the voltage peaks like this

.. Peak .. Peak .. Peak .. Peak .. Peak .. Peak .. Peak ..


A single phase motor supplied from a 208Y/120 three phase source will see the voltage peaks like this

...... Peak ... Peak ...... Peak ... Peak ...... Peak ... Peak ...... Peak ...

Either way, to the motor it is just alternating between two points, there is no 'rotation' with out the 3rd leg, only an uneven time between peaks.

Well that is just my WAG and I may be blown out of the water. :smile:
 
iwire said:
Lou I am going to throw something out and it may be wrong.

A single phase motor supplied from a 120/240 single phase source will see the voltage peaks like this

.. Peak .. Peak .. Peak .. Peak .. Peak .. Peak .. Peak ..


A single phase motor supplied from a 208Y/120 three phase source will see the voltage peaks like this

...... Peak ... Peak ...... Peak ... Peak ...... Peak ... Peak ...... Peak ...

Either way, to the motor it is just alternating between two points, there is no 'rotation' with out the 3rd leg, only an uneven time between peaks.

Well that is just my WAG and I may be blown out of the water. :smile:

The key to the question I asked was that the 3rd leg was the neutral. 1 hot and neutral to one set of windings and a different hot and neutral to the other set of windings. Heck, I don't know if you can even wire a motor the way I described, it might just blow up!:)
 
Winnie, where are you?

Winnie, where are you?

hardworkingstiff said:
The key to the question I asked was that the 3rd leg was the neutral. 1 hot and neutral to one set of windings and a different hot and neutral to the other set of windings. Heck, I don't know if you can even wire a motor the way I described, it might just blow up!:)

Yes, many motors are wired like this. The second set of windings is physically displaced (phase shift). Then the additional phase shift provided by the cap provides a phase shift in the order of 90 degrees That is, we have an imperfect 2-phase motor.

It would likely run (without the cap) on Phases A and B, but not very well, and not very long.

Winnie is the motor expert. Let's ask him.
 
Hey guys. Time zones. :)

I'll throw my hat in to answer Lou's core question:

My understanding is that when you take two legs of a 208/120V wye source, and supply it to a customer, that is _defined_ as a 'single phase' service. There is some IEEE standards body that lists the recommended service types and voltages to use, and they decided to define it this way.

In practical use, this is a single phase system. You use single phase panelboards, with two ungrounded bus bars. All of your line-line loads are _single phase_. A Blondel Theorem compliant single phase meter would work (however a distinction is that most 120/240 services are served with meters that are not Blondel compliant), etc.

However the real physical reality is that you have multiple phases available. With the two ungrounded legs _and the neutral_, you essentially have severely unbalanced three phase service. With an appropriate set of transformers, you could synthesize the third leg of the wye. A graph of Van and Vbn would show two sine waves displaced by 120 degrees; the normal _three_ phase graph with one of the curves missing.

On to the motor examples: To do this justice, I would really need to have a real time conversation with pictures. I'll try to start with a few pieces, and then let questions guide other aspects.

First: distinguish between _poles_ and _windings_. The windings are the electrical structures that carry current through the motor. The _poles_ are a description of the shape of the magnetic field; describing the number of north and south magnetic poles created by the windings. A single phase winding of complex shape could develop many magnetic poles. A three (or more) phase winding with simple shape can produce as few as 2 poles.

The _simplest_ practical winding is a single coil of wire, stretched across the stator from one side to the other. This single coil of wire would develop a single north and a single south magnetic pole.

If you were to connect this single coil of wire to a single phase supply, then you would get an alternating magnetic field with no rotating component. Depending upon the specifics of the motor, this alternating magnetic field can probably power an already spinning rotor, but wouldn't develop any starting torque, and can't influence the _direction_ that the rotor spins. Such a simple single phase motor would sit and hum; give it a twist and it would then come up to speed in which ever direction you gave it the initial twist.

_Practical_ single phase windings actually have several coils of wire, spread out along the inner surface of the stator. Some of these motors have multiple terminals available on the coils that are part of this 'single phase', to permit operation at multiple voltages.

Various tricks are used to make single phase motors that actually have a direction sense. One of these tricks is to have a second set of coils arranged 90 'electrical degrees' away from the primary set. Current through this second set of coils is via a capacitor, which introduces a phase shift to the current flow. I'll get to this phase shift thing in a moment.

Definition: in a motor, 'electrical degrees' are used to describe the position of the coils, meaning a _mechanical displacement_ of the coils, but measured in terms of complete magnetic N-S cycles. In a 'two pole' motor (one with a single N-S cycle) the electrical degrees are equal to the mechanical degrees.

The _simplest_ three phase winding has 3 simple coils arranged on the same stator, but 120 'electrical degrees' apart. Each coil as _two_ sides, each coil half sitting in a slot. In a single phase machine, the two coil halves are 180 degrees apart. In this simplified three phase machine, you have 3 coils, each with two halves, each half 180 degrees apart, the net result is that you have a coil _half_ at every 60 degee position on the stator.

When properly energized with 3 phase alternating current, the _sum_ of alternating magnetic fields produced by each of the three coils will (hopefully) be a single _2 pole_ magnetic field that _rotates_. This single 2 pole rotating magnetic field will pull the rotor along. The unfortunate reality is that this magnetic field will have lots of 'harmonic components', all rotating at different speeds, and in actual manufactured motors each phase actually has lots of different windings all electrically connected together...but we don't need to go there for this discussion.

The key issue for getting the above rotating field is that the coils should be positioned with the same electrical displacement as the phase angle difference of the supply voltage.

If you had real 'two phase' service, then you would build motors with a 90 electrical degree difference between the windings. In single phase motors, you arrange coils with a 90 electrical degree difference, and then use reactive components to get a 90 degree phase difference in the current flow.

If you have a 17 phase motor, then you need to have lots of windings with suitable electrical angle difference. But if you arrange the windings, then the motor will run.

Going back to the 120/208V 'single phase' service. Clearly, between leg A and neutral, as compared to leg B and neutral, you have a 120 degree phase difference. A motor could be designed to operate on this phase difference, and would be 'self starting' and would develop a rotating field, just like a three phase machine or a 'true' two phase machine. There would need to be two phase bands, and they would need to be 120 electrical degrees apart for proper operation.

I believe that if you took a single phase motor, designed for dual voltage operation by reconnecting the single phase coils, and instead connected the 120V coil sections _separately_ to the 'two phases' of a 120/208V service, that you would _not_ get a rotating magnetic field, and that you would end up letting the magic smoke out in much the same fashion as if you connected those two 'out of phase' sources to the primary and secondary of a 120V:120V transformer. The reality would depend upon the specific details of the windings, but as far as I know, the two 'halves' of a dual voltage single phase winding are not positioned well for operation 120 degrees apart.

If, however, you connected the 'main' winding for 120 volt operation and supplied it from one leg to neutral, and then connected the auxiliary coil (the one normally supplied through a capacitor) to the other leg and neutral, the motor would probably function reasonably (if not perfectly).

-Jon
 
al hildenbrand said:
:)

To me, the interesting image is of the magnetic field not bouncing back and forth (180?)

In a standard single phase motor there are only two wire connecting it to the power grid. It does not operate based on any phase shift between conductors and any reference point. These motors are 120V or 240V not 120/240V.

In the Capacitor Start 1PH motor there is a start winding and a run winding the capacitor provides a 90? shift between the run and start winding in order to get the motor turning. If the start winding is left in the circuit too long it overheats and fails, there may also be some small loss of motor performance as the two windings are not designed to complement each others work.

If you rewire a capacitor start 1PH motor so that there are three leads that you can connect to a 120V 3-wire (120/240 or 208Y/120) system so that the phase shift of the windings is created by the power grid the motor should start real nicely. However, again the start windings need to be disconnected just after starting or they will overheat and fail.

And you can also just wire the run windings and manually turn the shaft as a third method of starting a capacitor run motor.

Other single phase motors behave differently so playing games like this is not possible with them.
 
Yes, but:

Yes, but:

Jim,

If "standard" means split-phase, then I would argue that they have start windings at 90 degrees to the main which provides a magnetic phase shift for starting. Shaded pole motors are something else and don't belong in this discussion.
 
Hard to add to this not knowing exactly what you speak of. You are familiar with soft starts, therefore taking the cap out of question. The cap handles the initial inrush the motor is called upon. Are you saying the motor will idle after initial contact?

I am confused and that's not hard to do. Interesting subject though.

On from here?????
 
rattus said:
If "standard" means split-phase, then I would argue that they have start windings at 90 degrees to the main which provides a magnetic phase shift for starting. Shaded pole motors are something else and don't belong in this discussion.

That is why I said:
Other single phase motors behave differently so playing games like this is not possible with them.
 
76nemo said:
Hard to add to this not knowing exactly what you speak of. You are familiar with soft starts, therefore taking the cap out of question. The cap handles the initial inrush the motor is called upon. Are you saying the motor will idle after initial contact?

I am confused and that's not hard to do. Interesting subject though.

On from here?????

There are three different types of capacitors associated with motors.
Starting, running, and power factor correction. Each has its own purpose and is not interchangeable with the others.

Some single phase motors need some type of "kick" to get started. A starting capacitor is used to provide this kick and then is removed from the circuit once the motor reaches the correct speed.

Some bigger single phase motors (i.e. larger than 1/2HP) have a run capacitor that is in the circuit all of the time (these motors usually also have a start capacitor).

Power factor correction capacitors are used with three phase motors to help improve their power factor by effectively acting as a source of magnetizing current.
 
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