Electrically safe working condition

[petersonra]

you would do just as well in this case to just get some heat shrink and put over the exposed terminals. The shield serves no real purpose. The heat shrink is not perfect but it would provide more protection than the homemade shield.

 

[weressl]

you would do just as well in this case to just get some heat shrink and put over the exposed terminals. The shield serves no real purpose. The heat shrink is not perfect but it would provide more protection than the homemade shield.

Again, the solution is legally undefendable.

The OP mentioned that OEM shields are available fo $75, but he was reluctant to spend the money(?). W

ould he rather spend it on lawyers?! Especially since it is going to be his own money?!

 

[Aleman]

Again, the solution is legally undefendable.

The OP mentioned that OEM shields are available fo $75, but he was reluctant to spend the money(?). W

ould he rather spend it on lawyers?! Especially since it is going to be his own money?!

It isn't my own money. I work for a company that belongs to other people.

In your opinion, would the OEM shrouds make this panel ESWC with the disconnect off? The taps run to a UL listed touch safe
breaker which powers a 24V supply.

 

[Aleman]

you would do just as well in this case to just get some heat shrink and put over the exposed terminals. The shield serves no real purpose. The heat shrink is not perfect but it would provide more protection than the homemade shield.

What I said is that the shield helps to prevent accidental contact. And it will do that.
I will ask the powers that be to let me buy the OEM shrouds.

 

[weressl]

It isn't my own money. I work for a company that belongs to other people.

Since it would be you who are performing the modification that would void the listing of the equipment, the Company would NOT stand behind you legally, so you would need to pay for your own defense. Happens all the time.

In your opinion, would the OEM shrouds make this panel ESWC with the disconnect off? The taps run to a UL listed touch safe breaker which powers a 24V supply.

Again, if the panel was constructed by a listed panel shop AND factory installed guards are installed over the main's exposed parts, maybe. You would need to get the (written) consent of the panel shop when installing the guards and they probably want to install it themselves. I am not certain about the conditions of listing, but this may be one provision. They would also need to re-issue the original panel drawings to show the modification.

 

[Aleman]

We build and install these ourselves. Or that would be mostly me. Built to UL508A specs but not listed.

You would get a kick out of some of our older panels, seriously scary. They will all be replaced eventually.

 

[petersonra]

Again, the solution is legally undefendable.

The OP mentioned that OEM shields are available fo $75, but he was reluctant to spend the money(?). W

ould he rather spend it on lawyers?! Especially since it is going to be his own money?!

The shield he made cost more than $75 to make and does not work. Better to just buy something that will actually work if it is available.

 

[petersonra]

I am not convinced the dire legal consequences a subsequent poster is suggesting might happen to the OP directly are especially likely.

However, there is a level of legal liability that is incurred by implementing a safety solution to a safety problem that does not make the situation any safer. Just who actually incurs the liability might not be clear.

Calling this a "good faith effort" implies that the person implementing the solution has the knowledge, skills, and/or experience to make the judgement calls that go with doing so. I don't want to pick on the OP because he seems to want to at least try to make the thing safer, but what he is doing just does not make the situation any safer, and that suggests he should not be making these decisions.

It would be somewhat akin to calling brain surgery by the OP a good faith effort.

The "old college try" is just not good enough.

 

[weressl]

I am not convinced the dire legal consequences a subsequent poster is suggesting might happen to the OP directly are especially likely.

However, there is a level of legal liability that is incurred by implementing a safety solution to a safety problem that does not make the situation any safer. Just who actually incurs the liability might not be clear.

Calling this a "good faith effort" implies that the person implementing the solution has the knowledge, skills, and/or experience to make the judgement calls that go with doing so. I don't want to pick on the OP because he seems to want to at least try to make the thing safer, but what he is doing just does not make the situation any safer, and that suggests he should not be making these decisions.

It would be somewhat akin to calling brain surgery by the OP a good faith effort.

The "old college try" is just not good enough.

As they say the road to hell is paved with good intentions. I never questioned the good intent on part of the OP, just trying to make him aware the legal quagmire he may trap himself.

I can't go and build a panel to UL508 standards, just on my own. UL would need to certify the shop and that would allow me to affix the UL label. Subsequent inspections by UL would maintain the status quo, and they would yank the certification at their discretion if any of the provisions are violated.

 

[petersonra]

I can't go and build a panel to UL508 standards, just on my own. UL would need to certify the shop and that would allow me to affix the UL label.

You can buy the standard and build to it without having the panels actually listed by UL. If you read UL508a closely, you may find that the UL sticker that signifies it is UL listed is not on the list of required markings. Many of our panels that are not UL listed are still built that way.

As I understand it, at least one other NRTL is listing control panels to UL508a standards.

incidentally, the UL control panel standard is UL508a. UL508 is a different standard entirely and covers industrial control components such as motor starters.

 

[weressl]

You can buy the standard and build to it without having the panels actually listed by UL. If you read UL508a closely, you may find that the UL sticker that signifies it is UL listed is not on the list of required markings. Many of our panels that are not UL listed are still built that way.

As I understand it, at least one other NRTL is listing control panels to UL508a standards.

incidentally, the UL control panel standard is UL508a. UL508 is a different standard entirely and covers industrial control components such as motor starters.

So then why would one bother with listing, if not for legal requirements? Why do listed shops then so protective about their listing?

Sorry, I routinely mess up with leaving the "a" off of the UL508a, but I think it was clear from the text what I meant.

Indeed there are NRTL's who use other than their own standards to certify equipment. It seems to be an acceptable method.

 

[petersonra]

So then why would one bother with listing, if not for legal requirements? Why do listed shops then so protective about their listing?

Listing is required in some places. If a shop routinely builds stuff that has a listing on it and the listing agency finds they are not in compliance with their listing requirements, they will revoke the listing.

A lot of shops make a big deal of their control panels being listed as a marketing tool. As best I can tell there is not all that much difference between a well made control panel that is listed and one that is not for the most part other than markings of various types. There are some places that make some really bad panels.

Sorry, I routinely mess up with leaving the "a" off of the UL508a, but I think it was clear from the text what I meant.

It was.

Incidentally, UL508a does not prohibit one from adding the type of shield the OP showed a picture of. It does not appear that UL thinks the added liability is worth worrying about.

You can put a rubber duck in a UL listed control panel if you want to.

Adding the kind of shield the OP showed a picture of and claiming it enhances safety is another matter entirely.