Electrician or engineer

[realolman]

I'm not sure how to put this so I'll just put it:

At what point does electricianing end, and engineering begin? At what point should whom decide how something is done, or what is used to do it?

Although it may not be the best example, there is a post on here re: emergency lighting in classrooms. Should that be the responsibility of the electrician to decide?

 

[dlhoule]

Absolutely not; there is no NEC requirement for these items. Mostly they are covered by NFPA101 or some State or local requirements.

 

[iwire]

Absolutely not; there is no NEC requirement for these items. Mostly they are covered by NFPA101 or some State or local requirements.

Most contracts I have seen require the EC to follow all applicable codes, not just the NEC.

 

[joebell]

I think Bob is correct. Engineers like to use little disclaimers like "Feild verify dimensions" as well as referencing " all Applicable codes".

 

[cschmid]

At what point does electricianing end, and engineering begin? At what point should whom decide how something is done, or what is used to do it?

interesting question yet I would like more clarification.... are you talking about two different professions or are you talking two different phases of installation? Because a design build you are both engineer and electrician so it is tough call... In a contract build you are electrician until plan changes than you become involved in engineering process... This is my opinion and not for sure if this helps....

 

[realolman]

Although I used the emergency lighting in the classroom example, I really didn't want to limit my question to that...


I would expect most any electrician to determine the requirements for adding a receptacle or maybe some lights to a circuit, but consider that circuit as being in the office of a large industrial facility... with all kinds of motors, controls, mag panels, PLCs, feeders, blah blah blah.....at what point do electricians stop determining how and what is done, and engineers start?

These days about all I do is troubleshooting... when I ain't peeing.:smile:

 

[mdshunk]

...at what point do electricians stop determining how and what is done, and engineers start?

If there's already an engineer involved (like the guy who drew up and sealed the E sheets), you just install stuff. If you want to do something different, or if someone else wants a change, you go through him

If there's no engineer involved, sometimes you can "engineer" things, and I use that term loosely. There are some things that can only be done under the wing of an engineer, per code. There are some things that are best left to an engineer, which comes from experience. Electricians all have different competencies due to their interests in various niche topics. They may well be qualified to "engineer" designs in areas where they have special competencies. Know where to draw the line, however. The company you work for may also have rules and guidelines on when to consult an engineer. I'm pretty sure most employers won't let the electrician in the field consult with a Square D outside salesman, and between the two of the, engineer a switchgear upgrade, for instance.

Just my two cents.

 

[dlhoule]

I stand corrected by Bob (Iwire). Not all jobs have drawings to go by though. Sometimes they are not design/build either.

I do agree with Marc. The better electricians know where to draw the line in terms of doing their own design work and when to get engineering involved.

 

[petersonra]

I'm not sure how to put this so I'll just put it:

At what point does electricianing end, and engineering begin? At what point should whom decide how something is done, or what is used to do it?

Although it may not be the best example, there is a post on here re: emergency lighting in classrooms. Should that be the responsibility of the electrician to decide?

There are often state or local rules that tell you who decides what. If you have a drawing, the guy that made the drawing decided, although they often write weasel words on the drawings that make them basically meaningless like "meet all applicable codes and standards".

My suggestion for ECs dealing with engineers is to put it into your contract that you are responsible for installing per the NEC, but no other codes. You might also want to insert in your contract some vague language about who is responsible for meeting the specifications if the plans are not in compliance with the specs. Which is quite fair since few ECs have anyone on staff that know all the other codes you might have to follow, or are real familiar with every page of the 3000 page spec book.

 

[cowboyjwc]

Bob, I wouldn't say that that would work. Support of fixtures as well as required exit lights comes out of the UBC or IBC and are not even mentioned in the NEC.

Those are just the two examples that I could think of off the top of my head, but I'm sure you get my drift.

 

[petersonra]

Bob, I wouldn't say that that would work. Support of fixtures as well as required exit lights comes out of the UBC or IBC and are not even mentioned in the NEC.

Those are just the two examples that I could think of off the top of my head, but I'm sure you get my drift.

I would buy that the EC is responsible for supporting the fixtures properly. I don't buy that the EC is repsonsible for determining how many and where to locate emergency lights and exit lights. those should be on the plans.

 

[cowboyjwc]

Oh, I don't disagree with that. I'm just saying that a note saying that you are not responsible for any other codes other than the NEC, probably isn't going to be a "get out of Jail free" card.

 

[dalesql]

If it gets in front of a jury, having lots of weaselwording in your contracts or drawings often has little effect, they go after whoever has the deep pockets.

As a licensed professional, one is obligated to know things that are appropriate for that license. Just what that is, is decided by the judge in that particular case, as influenced by the expert witnesses called in by all the lawyers.
Thus, for electricians, the NEC or whatever electrical code is in force in the jurisdiction, plus the applicable portions of other building codes that impinge on electrical stuff. so chain supports for lights in suspended ceilings. anti-sway devices in places with earthquake codes. Clearances from fire sprinklers, things that are not allowed in stairwells, etc.
Unfortunately, I can't afford to buy a complete NFPA code library and search through the entire thing to find all the areas that impinge upon my work. That's why forums like this are so valuable. They allow us to share out knowledge, and learn from other people's mistakes.

 

[360Youth]

Although I used the emergency lighting in the classroom example, I really didn't want to limit my question to that...


I would expect most any electrician to determine the requirements for adding a receptacle or maybe some lights to a circuit, but consider that circuit as being in the office of a large industrial facility... with all kinds of motors, controls, mag panels, PLCs, feeders, blah blah blah.....at what point do electricians stop determining how and what is done, and engineers start?

These days about all I do is troubleshooting... when I ain't peeing.:smile:

I would imagine the first response is it depends on the fascility. You get into those areas, although it has been years since I have been in one of those areas, you will needs somebody's stamp of approval, ie engineer, to do those type of installs, adds, changes. On our jobs, we get a set of plans and the design install is on us, or we get a PO and then same thing.

 

[petersonra]

Oh, I don't disagree with that. I'm just saying that a note saying that you are not responsible for any other codes other than the NEC, probably isn't going to be a "get out of Jail free" card.

there is nothing that is a get out of jail free card. the way our civil justice system works basically anyone that touched something gets sued and the courts sort it out.

however, if you make it contractually clear up front just what it is you are responsible for versus what someone else is, you have a better chance of not having these kind of issues pop up. it is always a good idea to try and draw these lines of responsibility up front rather than try to determine fault after the fact. most people are willing to accept responsibility for things they are clearly responsible for.

I know it will not eliminate the problem completely, because there are some murky areas as others have pointed out, but reducing the number of murky areas to a bare minimum is a good idea.

 

[cowboyjwc]

Again, I don't disagree, in fact I agree 100%.

What we usually get though is "it's not on the plans", "I didn't bid that", etc.

For example, here the fire department does a walk through and will dictate if more exit signs are needed or more egress lighting. Most of the times there is not enough on the plans because you can't always tell if you need them until you see all of the final installs, such as shelving and what not that might block views.

I would agree that you should put something in your contract to cover these additions, instead of trying to get out of doing it because it wasn't in there.

The point I was trying to make, and I probably didn't do it very well, is if you have three exit doors and two have lit exit signs, you should know that the third one needs it too (an exit is an exit). You will, of course, not find that anywhere in the NEC.

 

[tonyou812]

I made a scarf holder out of 1 1/2 sch 40 pvc, for my mother in law, so she could sell her stuff at celtic festivals. I even bent a piece of 3/4 pvc into a head with shoulders to hold her better scarves. its amazing what you can do with a heat gun, water and glue.

 

[masterelect1]

I'm not sure how to put this so I'll just put it:

At what point does electricianing end, and engineering begin? At what point should whom decide how something is done, or what is used to do it?

Although it may not be the best example, there is a post on here re: emergency lighting in classrooms. Should that be the responsibility of the electrician to decide?

As an inspector, I am required to make sure that all work has been completed according to plan and specs. If there is a question from me or the EC it is submitted through an RFI (request for information) which goes back to the design engineering firm. What I refer to as a simple task such as adding a receptacle that is needed in an area should have the latitude to be ok'd by the electrician/inspector. The electrician's job should be to install as per specs and plans. his pay basis is predicated on his ability to do just that/no more-no less. Design is left to those who are being paid to do so. I am sure that a Google search would illustrate those in the trade who "engineered" a change in plans/design and are currently serving prison terms due to loss of life or property damage. Do what you are being paid to do and let the P E's earn their money.

 

[realolman]

As an inspector, I am required to make sure that all work has been completed according to plan and specs. If there is a question from me or the EC it is submitted through an RFI (request for information) which goes back to the design engineering firm. What I refer to as a simple task such as adding a receptacle that is needed in an area should have the latitude to be ok'd by the electrician/inspector. The electrician's job should be to install as per specs and plans. his pay basis is predicated on his ability to do just that/no more-no less. Design is left to those who are being paid to do so. I am sure that a Google search would illustrate those in the trade who "engineered" a change in plans/design and are currently serving prison terms due to loss of life or property damage. Do what you are being paid to do and let the P E's earn their money.

Although I think your response is a bit condescending, I will overlook that and tell you that I work for a major company. Anyone in the US , maybe even more would recognize the name. Except for what comes with pieces of equipment or systems (which gets less and less every day ), I have never seen a spec or a plan. I get work orders ( or should say got ) to "order materials" and "install" what I would consider to be fairly major projects.

The place is run by bean counters, and there has not been an engineer working here for over 10 years. The last one was an alcoholic, so there has not been a useful one in residence for the entire 28 yr I have been there.

So "maintenance mechanics" do it all except pay the bills. Some mechanics huh? Specs and plans?!?..... That's a laugh.

 

[iwire]

As an inspector, I am required to make sure that all work has been completed according to plan and specs.

Keep in mind that is not how it works everywhere.

Where I am inspectors only inspect for NEC compliance not 'plan and spec' compliance.

What do you do with jobs that have no plans or specs?