Electrician or engineer

[masterelect1]

Although I think your response is a bit condescending, I will overlook that and tell you that I work for a major company. Anyone in the US , maybe even more would recognize the name. Except for what comes with pieces of equipment or systems (which gets less and less every day ), I have never seen a spec or a plan. I get work orders ( or should say got ) to "order materials" and "install" what I would consider to be fairly major projects.

The place is run by bean counters, and there has not been an engineer working here for over 10 years. The last one was an alcoholic, so there has not been a useful one in residence for the entire 28 yr I have been there.

So "maintenance mechanics" do it all except pay the bills. Some mechanics huh? Specs and plans?!?..... That's a laugh.

I was referring to new construction. As an industrial plant electrician for 15 years(also a very well known name) who held the license for the facility i understand entirely your plight. My feeling however is that we are never paid appropriately for being a planner, purchasing agent, expediter, installer, troubleshooter and commissioning agent.
No offense was intended to those in your position. I'm just glad I was able to move on.

John

 

[doof]

Unfortunately I am both Engineer and Electrician. I have worked at #'s 25,26,27 on the ENR top 100 design firms for 10 years in 2 different states. I am now working for an electrical contractor. Part of my contract is the ability to get my electricians license, so I spend 1 or 2 days a week in the field as an apprentice and I hope to have my license in 3 years or so. Give or take to get all my field hours. Anyway I am also a PM, estimator and purchasing agent for the company. Lets say it was an interesting transition to the contracting side of things. IMO, there are a lot of things we could learn from each other. When I engineered a job I always did my best to make a set of documents that was clear, concise and organized to be useful to a contractor (as best I knew how). I think at the end of the day the person who has to use the drawings, should be who you have in mind second only to what is in the best interest of the owner.

Anyway, I would always fully expect the documents to be followed as closely as possible. Means and methods as usual are up to the EC. There's always a hundred different ways to do something and a smart engineer would give the contractor a little leeway, especially because they often have some ingenious way to do something (usually cheaper or easier or both) that you just didnt know about. I always wanted to be in direct contact with the EC, if there was ever a problem or issue I could hear about it, and issue a sketch well before the RFI paper trail started. Obviously sometimes you cant avoid it, but it streamlines the process a lot specifically when the change isnt $$ related.

I think I am rambling..... basically follow the drawings and specs as they are stamped and signed legal documents. That is what you are under contract to do. If you think there is or see a problem contact the engineer or write an RFI. We are both responsible for a finished product that is code compliant. Engineers are like everyone else, they make mistakes. Most will appreciate you catching one of theirs, as long as you dont make an issue of it. Usually, they are decent guys who are open to ideas as long as you dont come to the table with a bad attitude trying to play the blame game. If you bruise someone's ego (you're wrong) or put them on the defensive (it's you fault, it wasnt shown), they'll never see things your way.

OK time to get off my soap box and go to bed. Nite.

 

[eric stromberg]

In the State of Texas, there are rules in Section 1001 of the Chapter 8 Occupations Code (rules for Engineers), but not in Section 1305 (rules for Electricians).

The rules for Engineers state that Engineers must be involved in a building that is over 5000 square feet and/or has a clear span exceeding 24 feet. There is also a stipulation that applies to public projects over $8000.

Interesting, however, that none of this appears in the rules for Electricians, section 1305. Here is the definition of "Electrical Work" from 1305.002:

(11) "Electrical work" means any labor or material used in installing, maintaining, or extending an electrical wiring system and the appurtenances, apparatus, or equipment used in connection with the use of electrical energy in, on, outside, or attached to a building, residence, structure, property, or premises. The term includes service entrance conductors as defined by the National Electrical Code.

To me, it looks like an Electrican can do pretty much anything.
The intent of the writers of this code (i know the author and have spoken with him) is that competent Electrical Contractors know when to get an Engineer involved.

But it's not in writing...

 

[tomP]

Except for what comes with pieces of equipment or systems (which gets less and less every day ), I have never seen a spec or a plan. I get work orders ( or should say got ) to "order materials" and "install" what I would consider to be fairly major projects.

snip

So "maintenance mechanics" do it all except pay the bills. Some mechanics huh? Specs and plans?!?..... That's a laugh.

I think that if you are working for a manufacturer that uses their own trades to install you will understand realolman's plight.

There, as you know, are many things to consider in the installation of complex equipment.
If there is no engineer or installation prints who makes these important decisions?
The trades doing the install work.
Are we always going to do a perfect install, probably not, but considering the conditions most do a comendable job.

 

[pfalcon]

Simplistically and theoretically,
Engineers plan the work and electricians work the plan.

It is the widely accepted and IMO the appropriate practice of "incidental" that muddies the water. In rewiring a house the electrician is nominally supposed to replace things with like parts. It is considered "incidental" to perform minor upgrades and add minor things like additional receptacles. Common practice in many of those situations substitutes for a plan.

From reading the posts most everyone knows where the crossover is "at their site". Which is important since it is different at every site.

The question the OP poses usually comes up when there are contractual terms involved such as new construction or renovation; not facility work. The bottom line to that question usually is:
You as an electrician are at least responsible for everything stated in your contract. The contract should state responsibility for code violations. Understand that if the contract does not make you responsible for fixing code violations that doesn't mean you can install them. If you do, or if you fix "the plan" without bumping it up then you can be made responsible by the other parties. Is this something you want taken out of your check to fix?

 

[tomP]

Simplistically and theoretically,
Engineers plan the work and electricians work the plan.

It is the widely accepted and IMO the appropriate practice of "incidental" that muddies the water. In rewiring a house the electrician is nominally supposed to replace things with like parts. It is considered "incidental" to perform minor upgrades and add minor things like additional receptacles. Common practice in many of those situations substitutes for a plan.

From reading the posts most everyone knows where the crossover is "at their site". Which is important since it is different at every site.

The question the OP poses usually comes up when there are contractual terms involved such as new construction or renovation; not facility work. The bottom line to that question usually is:
You as an electrician are at least responsible for everything stated in your contract. The contract should state responsibility for code violations. Understand that if the contract does not make you responsible for fixing code violations that doesn't mean you can install them. If you do, or if you fix "the plan" without bumping it up then you can be made responsible by the other parties. Is this something you want taken out of your check to fix?

Unless I'm way off here realolman is talking about a company electrician installing new equipment
in the company plant without the help of plans, prints, or an engineer.

There is no contract telling you what you can and will do. Its up to the "boss".
If he says get it running thats what you do.

The questions are not can he and does he do work up to code, but which
buss do you feed this off to keep from overloading a substation.

Its a question of how much of a project should an electrician be responsible for?
When should an engineer be consulted?
When should there be a set of plans?
I know that many of you will say that there should always be a set of plans, however that just doesn't always happen.

 

[cschmid]

Unless I'm way off here realolman is talking about a company electrician installing new equipment
in the company plant without the help of plans, prints, or an engineer.

There is no contract telling you what you can and will do. Its up to the "boss".
If he says get it running thats what you do.

The questions are not can he and does he do work up to code, but which
buss do you feed this off to keep from overloading a substation.

Its a question of how much of a project should an electrician be responsible for?
When should an engineer be consulted?
When should there be a set of plans?
I know that many of you will say that there should always be a set of plans, however that just doesn't always happen.

I think the Electrician should be responsible for every aspect he decides to make the decisions on...When he is in where he feels an engineer is needed I would really like to think that their boss would grant them the audience of an engineer for the discussion of what he needs done....If you choose to make the decision it is your responsibility. If your Boss chooses it it is his responsibility unless you know you are breaking the law and you still do it...

 

[pfalcon]

...There is no contract telling you what you can and will do. Its up to the "boss".
If he says get it running thats what you do.

Typically in a facility the dividing line is better defined. Most every electrician and engineer that has been on site for more than a couple years knows where to stop. It's that "boss" thing that causes problems. What do you say to him when he tells you to step across the line? The line is based on the definition of "incidental" established by "common practice". You won't find details on that written down anywhere and the boss usually knows it.

The burden usually falls on the electrician. They are far more likely to be ordered to step across the line. At my site we have strong union rules that help everyone through. At other sites? Maybe someone can chip in on dealing with bosses at non-union sites. When our union folks find a boss, usually new to the job, that wants to go too far they sometimes plead ignorance, require written instructions from the boss, or cite code. Of course they have the union rules to fall back on.

 

[petersonra]

I think the Electrician should be responsible for every aspect he decides to make the decisions on.

Everyone should be responsible for every aspect he decides to make the decisions on.

The problem is that some people are not real good at knowing where and when to ask for help. Thats why it is sometimes a good idea to run things by a second set of eyes that has a different perspective.

 

[weressl]

Any and installation should be planned and documented. The engineering, design and drafting is outside of an electricians expertise or training. The engineer will decide where a device will be located, what size and type wire will it have, but it is the electricians responsibility to know how the device to be supported, how the wire to be installed, supported, etc. (Of course the manufacturers instructions also have to comply with the Code and sometimes they do not.)
They are both responsible to adhere to the local electrical code, but only the engineer has responsibility to assure that the proper resolution is reached where multiple codes with multiple trades are involved and that the documentation clearly outlines the extent of the responsibility for each trade.

 

[brian john]

Any and installation should be planned and documented. The engineering, design and drafting is outside of an electricians expertise or training. The engineer will decide where a device will be located, what size and type wire will it have, but it is the electricians responsibility to know how the device to be supported, how the wire to be installed, supported, etc. (Of course the manufacturers instructions also have to comply with the Code and sometimes they do not.)

Maybe in a perfect world, dream world or at a few institutions, generally many of the facilities we work at electricians design/plan the work, do the drawings, and implement the work start to finish.

 

[petersonra]

Maybe in a perfect world, dream world or at a few institutions, generally many of the facilities we work at electricians design/plan the work, do the drawings, and implement the work start to finish.

I'm inclined to agree. Most installations are pretty straight forward and don't require a whole lot of engineering.

You may want to get structural engineers involved if you want to hang stuff from the roof joists though.

I was in a plant once where the GC hung the conveyor system from the ceiling joists. The electricians noticed that the columns holding up the ceiling were bent when they went to install conduit. The architect ended up having some of the columns moved about 6 or 8 inches so they were not straight up and down anymore and were at more of a right angle to the actual load. Pretty wierd watching the welders cutting off the columns at the base and moving them over 6 or 8 inches. never heard of that before.