Electrician or not?

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e57

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Could someone please tell me what the difference is between a General and a Residential Journeyman? No, not just what laws are out there... These are the two new CA classifications...

I mean what is a "Residential Electrician"? And why would the skills or knowledge be any different?
 
I am an electrical contractor with an unlimited classification in the state of NC. What that means is that I have passed the test and had a few years of experience working with a master electrician. There is no distinction between residential electrician and anything else.

Since I do mostly residential work (work on remodeling and new homes) I consider myself a residential electrician. I am capable of doing commercial, industrial, etc , however the knowledge is very different. Rules are different for residential vs commercial. For voltages over 600 volts there are different rules. Normally one does very little pipe bending (unless you live in Chicago) for residential work and when you do it is small size conduit. Commercial is usually much larger--services more complicated, engineering demands for grounding is often different and the list goes on.

Needless to say although I am fully licensed I feel a little like a fish out of water when you get into the higher amps and voltages. I definitely would have to brush up on NEC rules.
 
Maybe we have become specialists, as opposed to a general practitioner.Would you want your receptacle going to a GP when there are specialists that are trained to deal with the specific problems that residential receptacles get.:)Give me a break and this comes from a place that builds nuclear plants on a fault line.
 
Because the knowlede and skills are worlds apart is why.
My experience is there are very few idividuals at the journeyman level - present company excepted- that can keep up with all there is to know and have adequate skills to perform acceptable work. An electrician that can go from one field to the other is rare and most spend their entire life in one field or the other. In Texas, I have noticed commercial electricians while look down their noses at romex jerkers because "anyone can do that", runnnig single conductor wire through an attic because they need a neutral and not believe there is any difference from NM. Others with quality residential and service truck experience suffer horribly trying to relate what they do to the C&I side and it shows. It would not hurt my feelings to restrict commercial electricians to only commercial work conversely. It takes a lot of time in the trade to cross over at will.

If you look at the NEC, there are more exceptions, options and pages written that only apply to single family residences than to a multistory high rise. The Residential guy must sort out by himself and show a profit with very small margins. That makes sense because people sleep in residences and house everything they own there. On the other hand, the C&I guys had better have the craftmanship to make exposed work look professional; the thinking belongs to a degreed engineer. Point being is there is a place and enough work for both.
To use the anaolgy of the specialist or GP, you have to see a GP and be referred to a specialist not just show up at the office. It takes both.

At the risk of REALLY starting a firestorm here and meaning no disrespect one way or the other, one could say that a Commercial Electrician is paid for what they do and a Residential Electrician is paid for what they know.
 
I spent my first 5 years doing industrial/explosion proof ,then about 5 more doing commercial.Went for about 9 years doing service work.Then maybe another 5 years doing romex.Spent the next 9 years mixing it up with residential, commercial and service work.Guess I am a general practitioner in this trade.
 
I agree...you need to know when you're over your head. I've been in the most severe xp areas in plants one day to roughing in a new house the next. All areas are very much different and need special attention to detail. If in doubt about a code issue, ask the question to your local ahj.
 
See if I can contribute to this thread in a positive manner.

In Alaska, to test for a residential license, one must prove 4000 hours from a contractor(s), doing electrical work, with pay stubs, and letters from employers, normally 3,(this can be said in the same manner as liars can figure, and liars can figure).Normally, should be able to do house calculation, hook up 3 and 4 way, service, and wire, for a fourplex, be code book ready chapters 1 through 4)

At 6000 hrs you are allowed to test for a Maintenance license.

At 8000 hrs is the first time you can sit for an "open journeyman" card. Better be able to run pipe, build cable tray, and pull wire!

I will say, sitting for a license doesn't qualify you for that line of work neccesarily.

I have a master's from the state of Washington (since 93). The administrators test that I took, had 100 questions on code, 50 on theory, and 50 general osha, and industry safety (WA admin code) in three hours. The afternoon portion was 29 questions, in five hours, all calculations, some residential apartment complex stuff, a school, a hospital and miscellanous stuff. The questions were also "stacked", meaning if you got the previous one wrong, you had wrong data, to screw up questions downstream. The test was a bear for exceptions, and extrapoliating data. The administrators test, was designed more from a management point than field. State message was that the one with the admin ticket, was the responsible party for proper installation, and code, per legal standpoint.

In regard to "crossing over", I try not to do any residential, (have done a fistful of it) unless the money is right. I've installed telephone, cable, and fire alarm, in Colorado, for full on commercial journeyman wage,( plus per diem) in a residential complex, ( Yuppers George, we did the first big condo project at Winter Park, thanks Rusty of St. Andrew's Electric).

I'd just as soon run PVC coated rigid, with concentric bends in racks, and do the control hook ups on the way out the door. The reality of it is, that, today, it's miles of cable tray and MC, or MC-HL, for industrial romex (CLX), with a lot of "skids" to be "plug and played"(which normally have their own whole new set of problems). Kills the skill, but makes money.

Most people "go with what they know", so if they fail to get the training they want, to go the direction they want, it can happen for a number of reasons. First one is that they probably don't know about Mike Holt, and Company!

So for myself, I have no problem crossing over, in resi, comm, or industrial. Would like to work on more substations, but that seems to be a hard club to get into...Goofy in the west here, they cry for Sub station techs, but if you don't have their particular quals, they won't even talk to you! Liabilty issues, overide skill issues.

Sorry to have rambled so long E57, but that's it for where I'm from. I qualify for General Practitioner.

edit - verbage correction
 
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e57 said:
These are the two new CA classifications...


This is just an opinion but I would guess at present they really don't mean anything. It will be the interpertation of the rules that really count.

I agree that this sounds like an attempt at specialization of the trade but there will always be overlapping areas. Here I'm not legally allowed to run a door bell wire because I don't have a low voltage license. I don't know of any power contractor that's going to call in a low voltage contractor just to run a door bell connection ( many of us don't hold the license because we never worked in a low voltage specific job for the required amount of time ).

Think of this, you have a small wooden structure with a 100 Amp single phase service that is wired with romex but it's zoned commercial. It's really an old house that is used as an antique shop Who gets to work on it?
 
Growler says:"Think of this, you have a small wooden structure with a 100 Amp single phase service that is wired with romex but it's zoned commercial. It's really an old house that is used as an antique shop Who gets to work on it?"

LOL. Seems like you'll need a large crew. One for the doorbells. One for the residential and one for the commercial. They can take turns working. :grin: :grin:

Crazy laws. What happened to the JOURNEYMAN electrician?
 
We don't have a "residential" license here. A journeyman or master license allows the holder to do any kind of electrical work -- residential, commercial, industrial. The state contractors' association has talked about pushing for a new license -- "residential wireman" -- that could be attained after only two years of experience and would restrict the holder to residential work only. They claim that there is a shortage of licensed journeymen, which is why this new license is needed. But there is no shortage of licensed journeymen here. All the new classification would do is make it easier for contractors to hire cheaper workers, which is possibly what's going on in CA.

Not allowing an electrician to pull a doorbell wire because he doesn't have a low-voltage license is just goofy. We also have a low-voltage license here, but you don't need one if you have an electrician's license.
 
Some IBEW locals have a residential class electrician. They go thru a much different apprenticeship than journey wiremen that do general construction work. At least in our local.
 
What's going on in the industry in regard to trying to say that a person isn't qualified, because he doesn't have current cert's is trouble in the making. (Kalifornia is swing a bat in the dark at a 90 mph fast ball).

California has passed legislation, without enforcement! Nice touch there. They jumped in, cart miles in front of the horse. Be nice if government got back in the business of governing, that which is to manage infrastructure, and defense of the nation. Managing infrastructure is getting them a fast F, by looking for those who are subservient and obiedent, scrap the brain power, build as we direct.

To fractionalize the industry, where a "J" card, means everything, and nothing, it's a move towards socialism. It's a freedom issue. Anytime a government wants to be in the womb to the grave, there's trouble in paradise. Socialism, is communism by the spoonful. Unless all the members in the industry, that's IEC and NECA alike, start taking a stand against this BS, it will ruin the state. Far better to hold hands with the manpower, than to support nanny-statism.

Makes me livid to have nanny-statism spring up anywhere, because it's on my door step next around. Keep in mind this is coming from one of those "union guys". This is not a union, non-union issue, this is an effort to cripple our industry by design.

I'll stick with Ben Franklin on this one,

"We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately."
 
Russ: Local 26 also has a residential rating, but the RW’s all work commercial right along with the "A" electricians. The only one benefiting from this rating is the employer, IMO.

FROM ROCKY
Makes me livid to have nanny-statism spring up anywhere, because it's on my door step next around. Keep in mind this is coming from one of those "union guys". This is not a union, non-union issue, this is an effort to cripple our industry by design.

Rocky: There are way too many electricians that feel because they have a license they can tackle any electrical problem. I have been on several jobs where these unqualified electricians left the job in an ambulance. WE/YOU need to know our limitations, state regulation will have minimal impact IMO.

I do believe there are many different classifications of electricians, residential, fire alarm, low voltage, control, commercial, commercial service electrician, testing technicians, IR thermographers, power quality technicians, linemen, (lighting specialists?) Lightning tech.. And I also believe crossing the lines between these classifications can lead to problems, being licensed and being qualified are two different things.

But trying to license and control all these classifications would be next to impossible, though I bet the states would not mind collecting the extra money.
 
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The Same laws are in Washington ST. After 4000hrs You can test for a Specialty Residential card ( Resi Journey) , But it dosent say JOURNEYMEN on your card here until You have 8000hrs ( 4000 can be Resi) and 4K Comm. then you can take the state Journeymen test. After you pass your a Journeymen, and then the real journey begins.
LOL:cool:
 
So some of you say "Skills'? I don't buy it....

Residential is not off limits for pipe work, exterior, services, and locally here anything below 8' can not be exposed MN, or MC. We have many class 2 structures as residential highrises. Multi-unit buildings with 120/208 services, and 277/480 common area lighting and equipment. A difference in voltage is also not a 'skill'. I dont see much of a difference in calculations, spare a few factors of 3 phase - but the math is at no higher level. Even into explosion proof - I do not see that as a 'skill' - sure some added knowledge about the design and sealing - but not a 'skill'....

IMO it is a form of disenfranchisement. Not by limiting one person to residential work, but limiting him from competetion for other work!
 
electrician or not????

electrician or not????

we are non union here. there are local ordinaces in effect, however, making it important to take a state test to be journeyman, or master electrician for job foremen. if the electrical inspector arrives on site, and a non licensed foremen is in charge of the job, the inspector CAN shut the job down. this is USUALLY not enforced.

i taught our local apprenticeship program for about 15 years. my job was to teach the 4th and final year, helping the students pass their state journeymans test. i can say, some students have an aptitude for book learning, and totally suck at conduit bending, wire pulling, blueprint reading....etc.

just because someone has a piece of paper does not make them a good electrician, but there must be a standard somewhere. and its ONE step in the right direction.
 
RHaggie said:
..... one could say that a Commercial Electrician is paid for what they do and a Residential Electrician is paid for what they know.

Historically you get paid more for what you know than what you do. Generally, a Commercial Electrician is paid more than a Residential Electrician.

Seems like an oxymoron?
 
While I believe that is a good rule (more knowledge better pay) it does not always hold true (at least around here) Fire Alarm Tech, control techs and electrical testers make the same wages as electricians. UPS techs generally make less then electricians as do electrical engineers.
 
For the record, for the California test only one "skill" being tested, reading the English language and legalese of the code. (Unless you take it in Spanish - and from what I understand the test is harder that way as the legalese in Spanish is more arcane.) A little math too, but you could fail all and still pass. If the Residential guy could read well enough to take that test he could just as easily take the General - if he had the hours to qualify. (Or felt OK about saying he did) Since I have not heard of anyone checking these hours out - anyone with two eyes and 1/2 a brain could take the test.

And if you took the residential test - you're locked in to it for the duration unless you go back into some program. As you would only ever be able to accrue 7650 hours less any commercial or industrial experiance.

IMO allowing a lower standard for homes is just plain stupid, and does nothing to protect the consumer at all. An industry full of two plus year (4800 hour) journeymen... Running their own work and allowed to train others....
 
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