Electricution of Plumber

[mkgrady]

When you install temporary power you are responsible for the safety of that temp system until it's removed.

Do you mean morally responsable or legally? If legally, what OSHA regulation is being violated? Let's say I install a temp service and perform no other work on site, am I responsable for it until the new service in done?

I can see being responsible for installing a safe temp service but once it's in place? I'd think whoever owns the installed temp service (whoever pays me) should be responsable for pushing the test button and calling for service if it gets damaged.

 

[LarryFine]

My understanding is the electrician simply pulled the wires out of the gfi. That made it far to easy for someone thinking they know how to do it to simply stick wires back in. Problem was the plumber did not know enough to be doing this. Not by far putting all of blame on him but he did play a part in it.

I have to disagree, and here's why:

Suppose an electrician who wanted water in a house (still under construction and not yet permanently connected), say for the toilet, found a hose with two female ends laying next to an outside tap, and found the other end laying next to a similar tap where the water meter will go.

Now, suppose he figured, "Hmmm. This must be how the plumber had water running in the house. How hard could it be to screw each end on and turn on the taps?" Let's add that the plumber had left an upstairs bath faucet supply open while he ran to the store for a longer riser.

So, unbeknownst to the electrician, while he's preparing the toilet for flushing, there's water flooding the upstairs, soaking the brand new wall-to-wall carpeting, causing sub-flooring to swell, and framing to warp. Just to make it similar, let's add that a floor collapses and kills the electrician.


Now, how responsible was the plumber for "making it far too easy for someone thinking they know how to do it to simply stick" a hose back on? Is he guilty of leaving temptation laying on the ground? Or, was the electrician responsible for his own actions?

Just food for thought.

 

[dbuckley]

Does no one else feel like the GFCI not functioning and still allowing power to pass through is a problem. Even without the blatant negligence in this case, with power hooked up properly, it seems to be a very dangerous situation when your GFCI isn't actually protecting you.

Absolutely.

I puzzled over that diagram for ages, trying to figure out how someone could get shocked when there's GFCI protection. And then it (finally) hit me - the GFCI must be busted. If the GFCI were working, then I would wager that as soon as you connect either wire from the house to the GFCI, the GFCI will trip immediately. The reason is that there are paths from both hot (assuming something in the house is a switched on load, even a garage door opener or doorbell transformer will do) or neutral to ground and thus there will be some current flow, and a GFCI only needs 5ma to trip.

So this type of arrangement should never work. Given I'm in New Zealand and cant pop out and try it, does it work? Can you power a house from a temps supply off a pole next door through a GFCI and it not trip?

All the other violations are just static in the airwaves and have no bearing on what happened here.

 

[skeshesh]

Definitly the plumber's fault. The truth is a plumber is not a layman in the sense that since he does specialized handy work he should know better than to act instead of an electrician. Also it's seriously moronic to keep working after getting zapped multiple times. Unfortunately, as is usually the case with any act of stupidity, others (such as the victim's his family and friends) will have to pay the price.

 

[Sierrasparky]

Absolutely.

I puzzled over that diagram for ages, trying to figure out how someone could get shocked when there's GFCI protection. And then it (finally) hit me - the GFCI must be busted. If the GFCI were working, then I would wager that as soon as you connect either wire from the house to the GFCI, the GFCI will trip immediately. The reason is that there are paths from both hot (assuming something in the house is a switched on load, even a garage door opener or doorbell transformer will do) or neutral to ground and thus there will be some current flow, and a GFCI only needs 5ma to trip.

So this type of arrangement should never work. Given I'm in New Zealand and cant pop out and try it, does it work? Can you power a house from a temps supply off a pole next door through a GFCI and it not trip?

All the other violations are just static in the airwaves and have no bearing on what happened here.

I agree. That GFI should have tripped. I have temped in a house off of a temp box, that was fed from a GFCI breaker. You need to remove the bond from neutral to ground or the GFCI will trip. It will of course properly trip if there is a fault.

So I say who ever is responsible for the temp power then it's their fault for not having a proper running ground fault protection.

 

[PetrosA]

Well, maybe not. You'll still have to have annual training on:


-- how to make sure not to obstruct the sticker, nor the ability of any driver or passenger from being able to view the sticker while in any location designed by the vehicle mfg as a seat


Kent

How about the guy sitting on the five gallon bucket in the back? He's the one who really needs to see the sticker

 

[PetrosA]

Wow.

I think everyone should KNOW that you shouldn't do stupid things at work.

I wish that were true I'm sure 98% of us here have done something stupid at work - unwittingly even, if only for not thinking it through or knowing better. Most times we get lucky and nothing bad happens, but that one time it does can be a bad scene. What the plumbers did wasn't unwitting. They knew they were taking a shortcut and probably even laughed each time they got bit by the fault current.

 

[hurk27]

I agree. That GFI should have tripped. I have temped in a house off of a temp box, that was fed from a GFCI breaker. You need to remove the bond from neutral to ground or the GFCI will trip. It will of course properly trip if there is a fault.

So I say who ever is responsible for the temp power then it's their fault for not having a proper running ground fault protection.

And what about the neutral bond in the meter can, well I guess if PVC was used then no parallel path so it wouldn't trip the GFCI unless a ground rod was taken out of the can, but if this was for testing, without any bonding all the receptacles would have shown no EGC, no three-light tester would have worked.
I say the electrician tied the romex into the temp panel ahead of the GFCI, to do the testing, and the investigator is just assuming that he used the GFCI, because the plumber stabbed the GFCI.

What does not make any sense is, you can not stab #10 into a receptacle, much less a GFCI,

Guess we shouldn't leave any extra wire on a job, so no one uses it in a dangerous way.:roll:

 

[jmellc]

Ways to Avoid This Happening Again

Ways to Avoid This Happening Again

I feel for everyone involved here. As several of you have mentioned, the pressure is always on to get things done. Some bosses are ok with taking time to improve safety, some are not; in spite of what they may say later when something happens.

Most residential electricians I know have hooked up a house in this way for testing and troubleshooting, labeling etc. Not kosher, but it is a fast easy way to do it for a temporary need. Maybe we should all fix up a drop cord with male plug and loose ends to term to the panel, being sure to shield the meter base as it will have backfeed.

GFCI receptacles for sure do not last forever. I cannot count how many defective ones I have replaced. I have seen them give out in as little as a year, or last as long as 10 years. I guess a good average would be 5 years. GFCI breakers, on the other hand, last much longer and do much less nuisance tripping. I use them on garage/shed ckts being used for refrigerators or freezers, as appliances will eventually trip the receptacles, and receptacles will trip from power flickers. Breakers are more expensive but more reliable. I think I will start using them on temp poles I build. I currently have none. Either way, we should force ourselves to test the GFCI protection every month, and check it when building or installing the poles. As someone said, it can fail the next day; but at least you've done what you can. In fact, why not test it each day when we arrive on site?

I don't too much fault the electrician for doing the hookup, but leaving the wire stretched from point to point was asking for trouble. Leaving a coil of wire somewhere around wouldn't be an invitation. Having it laid out was, in my opinion. And yes, I'm sure I've left similar traps before.

Plumbers obviously knew nothing about polarity and kept working after getting shocks. Anyone should know it's not normal to get shocks from touching the structure. My 9 year old knows that.