Electrocution?

[charlie tuna]

Re: Electrocution?

george,
when a car hits a pole --the pole usually looses! during the accident. the base of the pole is designed to shear off. the wires feeding in and (possibly)out of this pole get a pretty good "jerk"! has this "jerk" pulled the equipment ground conductor out of it's joint at either upstream or down stream pole??? the police call the utility company to make safe the pole's wiring and to move the pole off the street. do you think at this point, the utility worker, finds all the feeds (in and out of the effected pole) and confirms that the equipment ground system is functioning in all directions??? he makes the joints back up on the downed pole, replaces the fuse, makes the area safe with some yellow warning tape and goes to his next call! the replacement pole is ordered, and replaced a week later. the crew installs the new pole and tests it out -- fine-- the light comes "on". well, during the "jerk" one of the phase conductors got pulled against the upstream poles base plate and the insulation is cut through and touching the metallic plate of the pole. also during the "jerk" the equipment ground conductor was pulled in half in the raceway! we now have an energized pole and possibly the next pole could be energized through the equipment ground conductor, because we have lost the actual return path to the power source and the ground rods have no effect on clearing this voltage! i do not propose a gfi, but a device that will identify any metallic pole, sign,bus bench,etc. with a potential of thirty volts or more. is there a united states manufacturer who is willing to save 336 lives a year in the united states??? and get paid for it????? charlie tuna

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Electrocution?

You're being cryptic to patent your idea?

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Electrocution?

Why not just have some kind of plug that could pull out and perhaps require a coil of a few of grounding wire.Might not work 100% but anything is better than nothing

 

[charlie tuna]

Re: Electrocution?

jim, thats a good idea, but what do we do when there is no "jerk" from an automoble, but just a "jerk" who miss-wires the pole --- grabs three greens and splices them. but misses the fact that the one wire he missed was the return path to the power source? or as what is happening today, ignore the equipment bonds and just bonds the pole to the associated ground rod? or installs the pole without a equipment bond conductor? we need something on every pole, every sign, every metallic electrified structure. it would be an intrigal part of every outdoor light fixture by code. it would soon be reccognized by the general public as a safety device. it would easily be installed on existing installations. it could save hundreds of lives each year. the problem our industry has is not decreasing--it is increasing!!! it is a training problem that we can't reach ---which means we must treat it like we did the gfic and arc fault device.

 

[bphgravity]

Re: Electrocution?

Here is the latest update. It appears we will have to wait until the death examiners report.

Eartha Brown still has no answers as to how or why her grandson died playing ball in a Fort Myers park a week ago.

"It was the worst day of my life when I went to his funeral (Saturday)," she said of the father and husband who died one day shy of his first wedding anniversary. "He was a special, special person."

About 20 city and electrical contractor employees gathered at Clemente Park Sunday evening to "re-enact" the suspected electrocution of Dion Young, 22. They left with no new insight.

Dozens of Young's loved ones who came to watch left with more questions - and more anger. They thought crews were waiting until 6:15 p.m. to test the conditions, but they began about 6 p.m. Stunned family and friends watched as the workers left the park. No one stopped to talk to them.

"They are going to wish they had told us something," Brown said.

Attorney Joe North notified city officials Friday that the family plans to sue. Others, such as the power company, also may be listed as defendants, North said.

"They are going to pay," Brown said. "But it won't bring him back."

Young and some friends were playing basketball around dusk last Sunday when Young ran between a light pole and the fence surrounding the park's tennis court just as the light pole turned on, according to a police report. He fell to the ground, hitting his head.

When a police officer tried to move Young, the officer touched him and the fence at the same time and felt an electric shock, according to the report. Young was taken to Lee Memorial Hospital, where he was pronounced dead. Authorities are awaiting an autopsy's toxicology test results to determine the cause of death. That could take several weeks, according to the medical examiner's office.

Fort Myers officials shut down the park and a city contractor, Shamrock Electric Inc. owner Tom McLean, investigated Tuesday. Unable to find any problems then, he said he would return Sunday. McLean hoped that if he was there at the same time and day of the week, he would discover something.

Using an ohmmeter to test the voltage of the light pole and fence, McLean and helpers wore rubber-lined gloves as they shook the fence, hit the pole and poured water around the pole to create a puddle. They detected no current.

"Nothing was conclusive today," said Al Abdo, city public works director, declining further comment.

The park will remain closed until McLean concludes his investigation, city spokeswoman Kadi Tubbs said. She did not know how long that may take.

Young's relatives said they want answers soon and don't understand why city officials are not telling them more.

Cousin Cynthia Kitchen, 41, watched angrily as the crews drove out of the park Sunday.

"Why didn't they have the family over there when they were going to do it?" she asked. "They're scared, and it's wrong.

"It's a setup. That's how I feel," she said.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: Electrocution?

""Why didn't they have the family over there when they were going to do it?" she asked. "They're scared, and it's wrong.

"It's a setup. That's how I feel," she said. "

While i feel bad for them,The ovious reasons apply,they know they are likely going to be sued so not going to offer any info they are not court ordered to do

 

[charlie]

Re: Electrocution?

Posted by Charlie Tune, February 22, 2005 10:03 AM
We now have an energized pole and possibly the next pole could be energized through the equipment ground conductor, because we have lost the actual return path to the power source and the ground rods have no effect on clearing this voltage!

Charlie, most of the knockdowns are electric utility or municipal owned poles that are installed in accordance with the NESC. They do not have a grounding conductor but they do have a grounded conductor. If a phase wire is against the column, a fuse will blow. If the neutral has been jerked loose, the light will not work.

The only way for someone to get shocked from this type of installation is to have a phase contacting the column and the neutral connection to the column to have been lost. Our guys know to check the adjacent columns and handholes before driving away from a knockdown.

 

[ken987]

Re: Electrocution?

Charlie,
I know that your very knowledgeable, and you probably work with well trained people at your level as well your line workers. All of you have gone through extensive training, Having said that, there is the dark side. I have said this before, and I'll say it again, I work for the state DOT all our poles are metal. Most of the guys I work with have metal in their heads. When a traffic light gets hit at 11 at night and everyone is busting their #@# to get it back up and working as fast as possible, not everything is checked as well as it should. Most of these people have no formal training, do not understand the importance of grounding and bonding. There for are not doing it right. Through into the mix water, dirt, salt and all the other happy things that are on the road get into these bases. It's not uncommon at all to find lugs corroded of the raceway. There are plenty of energized poles waiting to be touched.

 

[charlie]

Re: Electrocution?

There are a lot of things that come into play with these installations. It depends a lot on who installed the facilities and who has the contract for maintaining them. We would do the work in accordance with the NESC while an electrical contractor would want to use the NEC for the installation rules.

Looking past the way it was installed, a lot depends on the training, the hour the work is being done, the weather at the time, and the amount of pressure to make it safe for traffic to start flowing again. Under adverse conditions and pressure, mistakes will be made.

It is drilled into our guys that regardless of the circumstances, safety is first and foremost . . . always. No one, not even our president can put pressure on our guys to make them unsafe.

 

[charlie tuna]

Re: Electrocution?

charlie #59,
are you servcie trucks equiped with a ground resistance meter and if so , which one?

from past case studies many of these electricutions go unanswered! and many are caused by uncontrolled conditions, where there are no code violations, maybe equipment failure, and of course many are the result of untrained maintainance workers. when you are killing 336 innocent people each year it is time for our industry to institute a measure to protect the public -- no different than the gfi requirement in the nec yaers ago. has it stopped all associated electricutions? no, but it certainly has saved many lives. everytime the proplem of electricution, by touching a electrified pole or surface arrises, it is sidestepped by technicalities --- no permit-no inspection-no license-no ground-no training-confusion-too many wires-dirt-salt-wrong color wires-an accident- etc.. there is a way, we as an industry, can stop 90 or more per cent of these deaths! most of the cost of this proceedure would be payed for by public utilies and state and county government.

an example was a county hired a sign company to electrify the county owned bus bench shelter for gain night time advertisment revenue on some signage. to reduce the cost of this the county did not require permits for this work even though the power company had to provide power to the service! the wiring was done by an unlicensed and unqualified person ---two mistakes were made. the shelter was not grounded back to the power source and a wire from the ballast was in contact with the metallic frame of the bus shelter. the end result---a dead 16 year old boy! was there a lesson learnt? no!!!!

 

[charlie]

Re: Electrocution?

Are you service trucks equipped with a ground resistance meter and if so , which one?

Yes, I don't know but it is the clamp on type. BTW, we do not install ground rods at our street light columns but we do ground them to the neutral with a 5 ampere inline fuse in the phase wire.

 

[charlie tuna]

Re: Electrocution?

charlie 59,
what happens if during a "knockdown", the neutral feeding ten poles is damaged and two weeks later this damamged(neutral) wire opens up (wire brakes) between the seventh and eighth poles? wouldn't poles 8-9 and 10 be energized looking for a return path to the power source?

 

[charlie]

Re: Electrocution?

Yes but some of the lights would also quit working as well and we would be notified of an outage. We have to have the neutral for the return as well as for grounding.

IMO, you need to come to grips with the fact that our grounding systems are different. Neither one is better than the other in all cases and each one has advantages over the other.

 

[charlie tuna]

Re: Electrocution?

charlie 59,
and the pole would have a potential on the surface in relation to the return path to the power source? right?
i understand the poles will not operate without a neutral, but during this period, wouldn't they be dangerous? thanks, charlie

 

[charlie]

Re: Electrocution?

Yes Charlie, you are absolutely correct. It will be dangerous until we have been called and we send a troubleman to repair the problem. This is not much different than a downed power line. In most cases a person would just get a tingle if that much. If it is a rainy day and a person was barefoot and had a pacemaker . . .

The bottom line is that this is a rare set of circumstances that is not very dangerous unless the electric utility is slow to respond.

 

[physis]

Re: Electrocution?

I'll bet you could invent an inexpensive indicator that would go bananas if a pole got energized. 110 decibel annunciator, flashing lights. I could probably build one for $15 or $20 bucks so realistically it should be doable for about $400 a pole.

I can think of at least three reasons why that wouldn't work.

 

[charlie tuna]

Re: Electrocution?

this device would be cheaper than the original ground fault receptacles. it would be required by code to be incorporated in all new outdoor light fixtures including signs and signage. there would be a universal installation kit --- mounts on any surface and operates on any voltage--- for retrofits!

charlie 59,
a "tingle" is too much. and i have seen local street lights out for weeks without being serviced. would you consider touching an energized pole being soaked and barefooted? this is how two teenage children were killed in south florida --- a rain puddle had formed close to the base of the pole --they were barefooted and touched the pole --- no pacemaker --- no bad heart --- sixteen years old --- both dead. we have the ability to stop or seriously reduce the number of "336" deaths every year in our country alone! the cost and method is well within the value of life!

 

[charlie]

Re: Electrocution?

Charlie, first you have to invent it, then you have to get it into the NEC, then you have to get it into the NESC. With so many electric utilities today using fiberglass columns for new construction, I don't think you would sell many (the NESC is not retroactive).

 

[charlie tuna]

Re: Electrocution?

if the fiberglass poles were correcting or lessening the number of deaths each year they might be a factor. the number of electricutions on outdoor electrified poles and signs is increasing every year. i am not trying to market the device -- i know how to make it -- the technology is already in place. it would take a company like greenlee or leviton, bryant to build it and the industry to promote the use of it just like the introduction of the gfi! and just like the gfi, it's cost has been reduced by supply and demand! cities would promote them and use them on their own poles, signage, street crossing stations, bus benches. and that cobra head street light on the fiberglass pole is mounted on a steel arm. if this device was in place, the employee servicing the pole could be warned before he left the service vehicle that the pole had lost it's equipment ground path and the arm was energized. the device would be an intrigal part of the fixture and cost less than $10.00.