Electrode to be exothermic weld or crimp or??

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ritelec

ritelec

Senior Member
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Jersey
Hello.........

Is it permissible to take a grounding electrode conductor from a water meter and a grounding electrode conductor from a ground rod, and take those two grounding electrode conductors
and splice them (or attach them together with a ss connection (buss bar) or bug) outside the panel and bring one grounding conductor to the neutral/ground bond.

I think it is ok.........but I'm pretty sure that splice would have to be exothermic weld, or pressure crimp, or bolts that don't back up....

Where might I find this article please....

Also, most recently, I installed a service with two 100 amp single phase drops to two meters to two panels....... I was going to install the electrode grounding as one 200 amp service and jump the two panels at the neutral/ground bar...............

The inspector wanted the grounds to be crimped.............

I instead grounded each panel as a 100a to the water meter and the ground rods....

I will look through 250,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, and lead is appreciated...

Thank you.
 
i see 250.64(D)(1)(1)....
for exothermic...........
but the rest of it makes me think a splice outside the box (with set screws) or in the first panel at the bus bar would have been ok
 
still don't have it..........
250.64 (D) (2) connectors listed................ the ground bar in the panels are listed.. right???

I mentioned to someone that taking the electrodes to a buss bar outside the panel..... then bringing a conductor to the panel buss bar was wrong.......

am I putting my tail between my legs and saying use of a buss bar is ok?
 
250.64 Grounding Electrode Conductor Installation.
Grounding electrode conductors at the service, at each building or structure where supplied by a feeder(s) or
branch circuit(s), or at a separately derived system shall be installed as specified in 250.64(A) through (F).
(C) Continuous.
(2) Sections of busbars shall be permitted to be connected together to form a grounding electrode conductor.


I always thought that it had to be:

(D) Service with Multiple Disconnecting Means Enclosures.
(1) Common Grounding Electrode Conductor and Taps.
(3) Connections to an aluminum or copper busbar not less
than 6 mm ? 50 mm (1?4 in. ? 2 in.). The busbar shall be
securely fastened and shall be installed in an accessible
location. Connections shall be made by a listed connector
or by the exothermic welding process. If aluminum
busbars are used, the installation shall comply with
250.64(A).

Did it change or have I misread it before?
 
Ok.....
I guess I was wrong and will man up.
Grounding electrode conductors can be spliced via a set screw bus bar outside a panel and one ground conductor brought to a neutral ground bonding point in a panel.
 
Now I don't know nothing.

At a customers house. Before I got there. They had a generator installed.
They relocated the existing two hundred amp panel from the basement to the first floor.
They spliced the existing water ground where the original panel location was with a new wire to the new location. They added length to the ground splicing it with a split bolt connector.

Thought that was wrong. But now I guess they where right.
 
With all of the rules that let you use other than "irreversible" connections for the GEC now, I think it is really time for that rule to go away
Why do we need it for the GEC but not the EGC?
 
You need to determine if you're installing a bonding jumper or a GEC since the rules are different. You can attach a bonding jumper with a standard split bolt but you cannot use the split bolt to splice a GEC. In the graphic from the NECH you could use split bolts to make your connections to the GEC.

250.66%2520Taps.JPG
 
you said you can't use the split bolt for the grounding electrode conductor... then you say in the picture supplied of the grounding electode conductor that you can use a split bolt.

???

confused
 
May I ask again.............
can two or more ground electrodes conductors be brought to a box with a buss bar mounted in it and the gec's go to a ss connection on this bar......?
Then a GEC brought from that box's buss bar to the neutral/ground bar in a main panel ?
 
GoldDigger said:
You can use a split bolt to attach something else to the GEC, just not to join two parts of the GEC run.

Tapatalk!
Click to expand...

That's what I thought........

Maybe with the the bar in the box senerio..........
The main gec would run through continuously and unbroken to the neutral/ground bar in the panel.... but the other electrodes can terminate on the separate grounding electrode buss bar ???

Sound right??
 
ritelec said:
That's what I thought........

Maybe with the the bar in the box senerio..........
The main gec would run through continuously and unbroken to the neutral/ground bar in the panel.... but the other electrodes can terminate on the separate grounding electrode buss bar ???

Sound right??
Click to expand...

250.64 Grounding Electrode Conductor Installation.
(F) Installation to Electrode(s). Grounding electrode conductor(s) and bonding jumpers interconnecting grounding electrodes shall be installed in accordance with (1), (2), or (3). The grounding electrode conductor shall be sized for the largest grounding electrode conductor required among all the electrodes connected to it.

(1) The grounding electrode conductor shall be permitted to be run to any convenient grounding electrode available in the grounding electrode system where the other electrode(s), if any, is connected by bonding jumpers that are installed in accordance with 250.53(C).

(2) Grounding electrode conductor(s) shall be permitted to be run to one or more grounding electrode(s) individually.

(3) Bonding jumper(s) from grounding electrode(s) shall be permitted to be connected to an aluminum or copper busbar not less than 6 mm ? 50 mm (1?4 in. ? 2 in.). The busbar shall be securely fastened and shall be installed in an accessible location. Connections shall be made by a listed connector or by the exothermic welding process. The grounding electrode conductor shall be permitted to be run to the busbar. Where aluminum busbars are used, the installation shall comply with 250.64(A).

Bridgeport_grounding_clamp.jpg

Now note that if you had a 200AMP service with a metal water line, if you went to the rod first then the GEC to the rod must be a #4 (normally a #6). All bonding connections must be properly sized.
 
jxofaltrds said:
250.64 Grounding Electrode Conductor Installation.
(F) Installation to Electrode(s). Grounding electrode conductor(s) and bonding jumpers interconnecting grounding electrodes shall be installed in accordance with (1), (2), or (3). The grounding electrode conductor shall be sized for the largest grounding electrode conductor required among all the electrodes connected to it.

(1) The grounding electrode conductor shall be permitted to be run to any convenient grounding electrode available in the grounding electrode system where the other electrode(s), if any, is connected by bonding jumpers that are installed in accordance with 250.53(C).

(2) Grounding electrode conductor(s) shall be permitted to be run to one or more grounding electrode(s) individually.

(3) Bonding jumper(s) from grounding electrode(s) shall be permitted to be connected to an aluminum or copper busbar not less than 6 mm ? 50 mm (1?4 in. ? 2 in.). The busbar shall be securely fastened and shall be installed in an accessible location. Connections shall be made by a listed connector or by the exothermic welding process. The grounding electrode conductor shall be permitted to be run to the busbar. Where aluminum busbars are used, the installation shall comply with 250.64(A).

View attachment 9725

Now note that if you had a 200AMP service with a metal water line, if you went to the rod first then the GEC to the rod must be a #4 (normally a #6). All bonding connections must be properly sized.
Click to expand...

I think it is worth noting that your photo is listed to be used for compliance with 250.94. The reason I mention this is that the 2014 NEC has clarified that the bonding bar installed for 250.94 cannot be used for connecting GEC conductors other than low voltage systems.
That said, I would have no issue with using this, as long as it complied for sizing, and you had a second one to comply with 250.94.
 
ritelec said:
you said you can't use the split bolt for the grounding electrode conductor... then you say in the picture supplied of the grounding electode conductor that you can use a split bolt.

???

confused
Click to expand...
Look carefully at the image don (edit, sorry it was Rob's image not don's) posted again. The GEC is 2 AWG. It attaches to the electrode on one end and the other end doesn't terminate at either of the service disconnect enclosures. The connections between each service disconnecting means and the GEC are bonding jumpers.

If I were doing the install pictured I would probably run the GEC unspliced to the 200 amp disconnect instead of reducing the conductor size but either way is acceptable.
 
ritelec said:
That's what I thought........

Maybe with the the bar in the box senerio..........
The main gec would run through continuously and unbroken to the neutral/ground bar in the panel.... but the other electrodes can terminate on the separate grounding electrode buss bar ???

Sound right??
Click to expand...

well, i've always used an unbroken GEC from ground rod to ufer, to building steel, to cold water, to gas where required, to the neutral in the panel.
unbroken includes hypress and cadweld. it's a simple reason why... nobody can take exception to it.

and if someone does take exception to it, i drive five ground rods in a circle, and form a pentagram with the GEC,
cadwelding at all intersections of the GEC.

that seems to hold them pretty well.
 
Fulthrotl said:
well, i've always used an unbroken GEC from ground rod to ufer, to building steel, to cold water, to gas where required, to the neutral in the panel.
unbroken includes hypress and cadweld. it's a simple reason why... nobody can take exception to it.

and if someone does take exception to it, i drive five ground rods in a circle, and form a pentagram with the GEC,
cadwelding at all intersections of the GEC.

that seems to hold them pretty well.
Click to expand...
Now throw in a second service panel, like the OP has.

But you did mention cadwelding as being considered unbroken so I guess you would cadweld the tap to the second panel also. Wouldn't be an improper installation, but not all those segments are required to be connected by irreversible means either. The ground rod only needs 6 AWG max, if nothing else is connected except the ground rod in that segment. The Ufer only needs 4 AWG max, if the Ufer is the only thing connected to that segment. The others have to be sized to 250.66.

NEC doesn't require ground rods, but they are the easiest solution when other electrodes are not available or when a supplemental electrode is required and nothing else is available. You can drive hundreds of rods, or install unlimited number of other made electrodes, or a ground ring if you want, but doesn't change the fact you still need to use the CEE, the water pipe or the building steel as electrodes if they are present.
 
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