ElectroFlow
- Thread starter velippert
- Start date
- Status
hbiss
EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
- Location
- Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
- Occupation
- EC
Re: ElectroFlow
Care to elaborate on what exatly "ElectroFlow" is?
-Hal
Care to elaborate on what exatly "ElectroFlow" is?
-Hal
- Location
- Massachusetts
charlie
Senior Member
- Location
- Indianapolis
jerryo3266
Member
Re: ElectroFlow
I have first hand knowledge and can tell you it works. There will be more and more coming out in the months to come about this very overlooked system that is beginning to flourish in the US.
Jerryo
I have first hand knowledge and can tell you it works. There will be more and more coming out in the months to come about this very overlooked system that is beginning to flourish in the US.
Jerryo
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- engineer
Re: ElectroFlow
If you go to this web site, you will immediately notice a complete lack of objective information and a lot of hype. Thats a huge warning sign.
Its seems to me the only way they could possibly do all the things they claim is by feeding the line power into a huge invertor and then recreating the power. This would allow all their claims to be true.
The problem I see is that such a device would eat an enormous amount of power, far more than what you might save by improving the power factor, and would have an output power that has a lot of harmonics and noise.
I am a skeptic.
If you go to this web site, you will immediately notice a complete lack of objective information and a lot of hype. Thats a huge warning sign.
Its seems to me the only way they could possibly do all the things they claim is by feeding the line power into a huge invertor and then recreating the power. This would allow all their claims to be true.
The problem I see is that such a device would eat an enormous amount of power, far more than what you might save by improving the power factor, and would have an output power that has a lot of harmonics and noise.
I am a skeptic.
Re: ElectroFlow
Wow, less than a two year payback, and a guaranteed 34% savings on power, and the customer's installation has no bearing on the outcome. That is some pretty fantastic stuff.
Red Flag, as Bob pointed out, I didn't see anything that gave any clues as to the physics or science behind the claims.
Occasionally I get asked to look at these. Usually the request is, "Hey, we have bad power at the xxx remote site and this is just the ticket to fix all the problems." The first thing I do is call/email and ask for a technical paper or design manual, and if those are not available, then I ask for an installation manual and operations manual. I specifically don't want a sales brochure. I'll also ask for names and numbers of customers with working installations.
And amazingly, the vendor often says, "That information is not available right now, we are working on it." Ummm. Okay, call me when it is. Don't remember ever getting a call back on one of those.
Leaves me pretty skeptical. But, if I needed one, I'd be calling for the information. Who knows, maybe they really do have a new grade of Flux Capacitor and are the first on the market with it.
carl
Wow, less than a two year payback, and a guaranteed 34% savings on power, and the customer's installation has no bearing on the outcome. That is some pretty fantastic stuff.
Red Flag, as Bob pointed out, I didn't see anything that gave any clues as to the physics or science behind the claims.
Occasionally I get asked to look at these. Usually the request is, "Hey, we have bad power at the xxx remote site and this is just the ticket to fix all the problems." The first thing I do is call/email and ask for a technical paper or design manual, and if those are not available, then I ask for an installation manual and operations manual. I specifically don't want a sales brochure. I'll also ask for names and numbers of customers with working installations.
And amazingly, the vendor often says, "That information is not available right now, we are working on it." Ummm. Okay, call me when it is. Don't remember ever getting a call back on one of those.
Leaves me pretty skeptical. But, if I needed one, I'd be calling for the information. Who knows, maybe they really do have a new grade of Flux Capacitor and are the first on the market with it.
carl
ron
Senior Member
- Location
- New York, 40.7514,-73.9925
Re: ElectroFlow
Here's some more discussion
http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=96608
http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=21978
Here's some more discussion
http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=96608
http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=21978
ron
Senior Member
- Location
- New York, 40.7514,-73.9925
Re: ElectroFlow
Carl,
Look about halfway down the website below
http://www.galco.com/circuit/PFCC_har.htm
Carl,
Look about halfway down the website below
http://www.galco.com/circuit/PFCC_har.htm
jerryo3266
Member
Re: ElectroFlow
As all can see there is a lot of speculation about what none have real information about concerninmg Electroflow. As I'm sure you all know, caps magnify harmonics. They also don't save energy but rather waste it. What you gain in current you lose in voltage and that's what your paying for. Don't listen to me go to zucker's web-site. Even though he was a pioneer in caps with many of the world's largest comnpanies he understood the downside of them. However, that was the only solution available at the time.
As Harmonics have become the predominant problem in industry today the issue becomes more relevant.
The only reason Eectroflow has not skyrocketed to sucess is poor marketing.
What is it? It's basically a custom built phase shifting, zig-zag reactor that is monitored and controlled by a micr-processor. It uses virtually no energy to operate and is proving very sucessful in alleviating industry related anomalies in everything from plastics extrusion to wastewater to sensitive hospital equipment. In one case in Hawaii even the elevator company wanted to know where to get it because since installing it, the facility has had virtually 0 elevator malfunction.
As all can see there is a lot of speculation about what none have real information about concerninmg Electroflow. As I'm sure you all know, caps magnify harmonics. They also don't save energy but rather waste it. What you gain in current you lose in voltage and that's what your paying for. Don't listen to me go to zucker's web-site. Even though he was a pioneer in caps with many of the world's largest comnpanies he understood the downside of them. However, that was the only solution available at the time.
As Harmonics have become the predominant problem in industry today the issue becomes more relevant.
The only reason Eectroflow has not skyrocketed to sucess is poor marketing.
What is it? It's basically a custom built phase shifting, zig-zag reactor that is monitored and controlled by a micr-processor. It uses virtually no energy to operate and is proving very sucessful in alleviating industry related anomalies in everything from plastics extrusion to wastewater to sensitive hospital equipment. In one case in Hawaii even the elevator company wanted to know where to get it because since installing it, the facility has had virtually 0 elevator malfunction.
Used to work for them
Used to work for them
I used to work for this guy. Yes, the claims are real. Bit cheesy for sure but real. The technology is very different from what has been used before in this field before. There aren't any MOV's as a lot of people use. It is not a "black box" that just has power factor correction caps inside. The bold and cheesy claims are a result of the owner, A PHD holding engineer from the University of Missouri. He is a genious of an engineer but knows squat about business and basic marketing. The box does what it claims and does not consume any power while doing it, it is passive and only has a digital monitoring circuit that uses a trickle of power.
Used to work for them
I used to work for this guy. Yes, the claims are real. Bit cheesy for sure but real. The technology is very different from what has been used before in this field before. There aren't any MOV's as a lot of people use. It is not a "black box" that just has power factor correction caps inside. The bold and cheesy claims are a result of the owner, A PHD holding engineer from the University of Missouri. He is a genious of an engineer but knows squat about business and basic marketing. The box does what it claims and does not consume any power while doing it, it is passive and only has a digital monitoring circuit that uses a trickle of power.
winnie
Senior Member
- Location
- Springfield, MA, USA
- Occupation
- Electric motor research
petersonra said:
The site raises my snake oil alarms as well, so I too am a skeptic...but they don't seem to be proposing anything strictly impossible.
Bob's comment about using an inverter is spot on. However there is a variant that is an area of active research that is plausible. This might be this research coming to market, with loads of hype. (Side note: the term inverter is used for a VSD.)
Background:
In an inverter, you have a line input (the rectifier), and you have an output to the load (the half bridges). In theory, you could use an inverter to drive your entire plant, providing 'perfect' power to the loads in your plant, despite considerable variations on the supply. Essentially this approach places the inverter in series with your plant.
There are several problems with this approach, including the fact that the utility will see the harmonic characteristics of the input rectifier, and _all_ the power needs to flow through the power electronics, not good for efficiency.
Now with a smart enough power factor correcting rectifier stage, the harmonic characteristics that the utility sees could be rendered nearly perfect.
Variation:
Place a suitable power electronic device in _parallel_ with your plant or load. "Simply" connect a very smart input rectifier stage, backed up by a DC capacitor bank, with _no output stage_ and _no load_ connected to this device. The device is the input rectifier of an inverter, without the output bits, but it is a smart line reactive input stage, using technology developed for rectifiers with correct power factor.
Now, rather than having this device operate as a perfect unity power factor rectifier, you have it act as an inverse load to whatever bad happens to be on your line. If your plant has a lagging power factor, then you draw current early in the cycle, essentially placing additional capacitive loading on the line. If there is third harmonic present, you place a inverse third harmonic load on the line, etc.
That's the theory, anyway. The power electronics to do this certainly exists. The issue is control, which is not simple (and beyond me...), packaging, cost, etc.
Like I said, I don't know what this company has implemented or how much they are charging, and I'd stay away from anyone who cannot provide the necessary technical info (if necessary under a non-disclosure agreement).
Edit to add: just followed the links to the other forum sites. Clearly they are not using the above technology, but instead various passive components (inductors and capacitors) controlled using some perhaps smart electronics.
-Jon
Last edited:
dave_asdf
Member
- Location
- tampa florida
smoke and mirrors
smoke and mirrors
mirus has some things that seem similar but i don't know if they're even talking about the same thing.
http://www.mirusinternational.com/
http://www.pserc.org/cgi-pserc/getb...ati/psercsemin1/psercsemin0/enjeti_slides.pdf
Edited to add another link. this professor kind of breaks it down. I'm starting to wonder... if I were to install these how much would they lower the heat ouput/power loss on a transformer? In my particular case I lose twice on the electric bill because alot of the transformers with high neutral currents (mostly K-13's) are in a controlled environment. lose once when they make the heat, lose again when it has to be taken out of the air... a lot of the transformers are showing neutral current equal to the average of phase current or more. Is there a good thumb rule anybody knows or a case study you could point me to that talks about transformer temp vs harmonic current?
smoke and mirrors
mirus has some things that seem similar but i don't know if they're even talking about the same thing.
http://www.mirusinternational.com/
http://www.pserc.org/cgi-pserc/getb...ati/psercsemin1/psercsemin0/enjeti_slides.pdf
Edited to add another link. this professor kind of breaks it down. I'm starting to wonder... if I were to install these how much would they lower the heat ouput/power loss on a transformer? In my particular case I lose twice on the electric bill because alot of the transformers with high neutral currents (mostly K-13's) are in a controlled environment. lose once when they make the heat, lose again when it has to be taken out of the air... a lot of the transformers are showing neutral current equal to the average of phase current or more. Is there a good thumb rule anybody knows or a case study you could point me to that talks about transformer temp vs harmonic current?
Last edited:
peteo
Senior Member
- Location
- Los Angeles
A very interesting discussion of several techniques in a PDF. The appendix is particularly clear and worth reading, despite using a couple odd terms. Thankfully chapter 1 covers traditional methods; I'm not even going to guess what's inside the electro flow apparatus. The conclusion from this document:
"The profusion of non-linear loads makes harmonic distortion of power networks a phenomenon of increasing amplitude, the effects of which cannot be ignored since almost all the power network components are in practice affected.
Up to now the most popular solution was passive filtering. However, an attractive alternative to this complex and non risk-free solution is now commercially available in the form of active harmonic conditioners.
These devices use a structure of the static power converter type. Consequently, semiconductor progress means that converters, which are normally harmonic disturbers, now form efficient, self-adaptive harmonic compensation devices .
The easy to use, self-adaptive ?shunt- type? active harmonic conditioner, which requires virtually no preliminary studies prior to use, is the ideal solution for harmonic compensation on a non-linear load or LV distribution switchboard. However it does not necessarily replace passive filters with which it can be combined advantangeously in some cases."
http://www.schneider-electric.com/cahier_technique/en/abstracts/active_harmonic_conditioners.htm
Guess what, Coca-Cola bottling plants can have power quality problems. The issue I have with this is what was pointed out earlier, marketing. If this solution was - blanket statement - capable of reducing electric bills at all locations, then large investors would have created ESPCs to cash in on it. Or the company would have their own free installation with built-in, no-risk financing. Who wants to walk down to the SBA with me and propose a loan for this?
"The profusion of non-linear loads makes harmonic distortion of power networks a phenomenon of increasing amplitude, the effects of which cannot be ignored since almost all the power network components are in practice affected.
Up to now the most popular solution was passive filtering. However, an attractive alternative to this complex and non risk-free solution is now commercially available in the form of active harmonic conditioners.
These devices use a structure of the static power converter type. Consequently, semiconductor progress means that converters, which are normally harmonic disturbers, now form efficient, self-adaptive harmonic compensation devices .
The easy to use, self-adaptive ?shunt- type? active harmonic conditioner, which requires virtually no preliminary studies prior to use, is the ideal solution for harmonic compensation on a non-linear load or LV distribution switchboard. However it does not necessarily replace passive filters with which it can be combined advantangeously in some cases."
http://www.schneider-electric.com/cahier_technique/en/abstracts/active_harmonic_conditioners.htm
Guess what, Coca-Cola bottling plants can have power quality problems. The issue I have with this is what was pointed out earlier, marketing. If this solution was - blanket statement - capable of reducing electric bills at all locations, then large investors would have created ESPCs to cash in on it. Or the company would have their own free installation with built-in, no-risk financing. Who wants to walk down to the SBA with me and propose a loan for this?
jerryo3266
Member
Electroflow answers
Electroflow answers
I've read much about electroflow that is ill informed so I would be glad to answer any/all questions regarding the technology.
Jerry
Electroflow answers
I've read much about electroflow that is ill informed so I would be glad to answer any/all questions regarding the technology.
Jerry
robbietan
Senior Member
- Location
- Antipolo City
from what I understand, this is a tank circuit with a variable inductor, instead of the common practice variable capacitor.
RayS
Senior Member
- Location
- Cincinnati
well, my first impression is that most facilities aren't currently wastingany where near 34% of their power, so the claim for guaranteed power reduction seems iffy.
Aside from that it looks like a real product. I've done some capacitor work, and used both the static caps at the load (great solution technically, as it reduces losses all the way down the line) and a stepped cap bank at the switchgear (much easier install)
this looks like a stepped cap. bank with additional storage/correction in the coils and more sophisticated controls.
Anyone else concerned about "regenerating" a lost phase? seems like ya wanna just turn it off if ya lose a phase...
Aside from that it looks like a real product. I've done some capacitor work, and used both the static caps at the load (great solution technically, as it reduces losses all the way down the line) and a stepped cap bank at the switchgear (much easier install)
this looks like a stepped cap. bank with additional storage/correction in the coils and more sophisticated controls.
Anyone else concerned about "regenerating" a lost phase? seems like ya wanna just turn it off if ya lose a phase...
jerryo3266
Member
You're right, most facilities aren't but some are. The literature states up to 34%. That's just marketing and the best case scenario to date. The typical is 8% to 12%. They are tank circuits but they are isolated from the system to protect the system from the lowered impedance and magnified harmonics that come with cap banks.
As far as lost phase. This is rare but does happen and the effects can be astronomical to a big plant. In certain areas of the country and the world it IS a recurring problem and this system does protect against it.
As far as lost phase. This is rare but does happen and the effects can be astronomical to a big plant. In certain areas of the country and the world it IS a recurring problem and this system does protect against it.
- Status