emergency exit signs/lights

[bravo69]

Hello,

We have on-site exit signs with battery back-up and fed from an emergency circuit. My question is, since the feed to the exit signs are from emergency power & the generator start-up time is 7seconds, can the battery's be removed?

Thank you in advance

 

[iwire]

Hello,

We have on-site exit signs with battery back-up and fed from an emergency circuit. My question is, since the feed to the exit signs are from emergency power & the generator start-up time is 7seconds, can the battery's be removed?

Thank you in advance

Is the generator configured as an article 700 emergency generator or an article 702 optional standby generator?

 

[bravo69]

Is the generator configured as an article 700 emergency generator or an article 702 optional standby generator?

not sure. How would I know?

 

[iwire]

not sure. How would I know?

What things does it power?

If it only powers required egress lighting it is likely an emergency generator.

If it powers general lighting and / or any receptacles at all it is likely an optional standby generator.

If it is set up as an optional standby generator the batteries will have to remain.

There is a way the generator could do both, it requires there be at least two transfer switches to do so.

 

[bravo69]

What things does it power?

If it only powers required egress lighting it is likely an emergency generator.

If it powers general lighting and / or any receptacles at all it is likely an optional standby generator.

If it is set up as an optional standby generator the batteries will have to remain.

There is a way the generator could do both, it requires there be at least two transfer switches to do so.

It powers lights, exit signs, receptacles, hvac and process equipment, gas process cabinets and the loads have priorities

 

[pv_n00b]

NEC art. 700 covers the requirements for emergency systems and 700.12 in particular covers the power sources. If the backup system is designed to comply with 700 then it can be counted as the power supply to the emergency lighting.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Hello,

We have on-site exit signs with battery back-up and fed from an emergency circuit. My question is, since the feed to the exit signs are from emergency power & the generator start-up time is 7seconds, can the battery's be removed?

Thank you in advance

So as soon as the generator starts these lights with a battery back up go off because they now have power? It is the intent that the unit equipment (battery back-up emergency lights) be few from the same circuit that provides the normal power to the area.

 

[GoldDigger]

I think that the OP is saying that the "normal" power feed to the unit equipment is backed up by the (optional?) generator.
The behavior would be that E lights go to battery for seven seconds while the generator is starting and then switch from battery back to normal, i.e. generator.
He would like not to have to test and maintain the batteries.
I would say now that they are installed, keep them maintained in case of generator failure or feed circuit breaking in a disaster.


Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

 

[bravo69]

I think that the OP is saying that the "normal" power feed to the unit equipment is backed up by the (optional?) generator.
The behavior would be that E lights go to battery for seven seconds while the generator is starting and then switch from battery back to normal, i.e. generator.
He would like not to have to test and maintain the batteries.
I would say now that they are installed, keep them maintained in case of generator failure or feed circuit breaking in a disaster.


Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

If I do find that our system is classified as optional stand-by power, where in the code does it say that the unit equipment cannot be energized from a battery but from the optional-stand-by power system itself? I was just recently told, that during the design, the project manager requested the engineering consultants to have the unit equipment come equipped with battery's. Not sure how that will save money? 15 years later, I am being told it cost money to maintain the battery's and why cant we just remove them. I need to find in the code that battery's are not required in unit equipment in a optional stand-by system.

 

[mgookin]

The requirements for means of egress illumination come from your bldg code, from nfpa 1 and from nfpa 101.

My guess is the fire marshal is asking for periodic 90 minute testing and reporting on the emergency lighting and that's expensive to the company. They are smart to consider all options.

I'm not going to try to determine what you can and can't do in NY because it doesn't matter what my interpretation is. I suggest you call the fire marshal and run this by him. Don't visit the 700 vs. 702 unless he brings it up; it will only contaminate the conversation. AFAIK you can light it with candles or sparklers if you can get them lit in <10 seconds and meet the minimum required light levels.

As to leaving the batteries as Golddigger suggested, I'm all for that too. Even if they only last 10 seconds they'd be helping. They would not be present to meet the requirement; they would only supplement the required system.

 

[iwire]

I suggest you call the fire marshal and run this by him.

Best advice or whoever the AHJ is.

Don't visit the 700 vs. 702 unless he brings it up; it will only contaminate the conversation.

No point in talking to them if not.

AFAIK you can light it with candles or sparklers if you can get them lit in <10 seconds and meet the minimum required light levels.

AFAIK know if they are electric they must be supplied by an emergency source.

They would not be present to meet the requirement; they would only supplement the required system.

Unless the generator is an article 700 emergency source those batteries are required, not optional.

 

[iwire]

It powers lights, exit signs, receptacles, hvac and process equipment, gas process cabinets and the loads have priorities

OK, unless that has at least two transfer switches involved that cannot be an emergency source.

In my opinion the batteries must remain in the emergency lighting and exit signs.

 

[gadfly56]

OK, unless that has at least two transfer switches involved that cannot be an emergency source.

In my opinion the batteries must remain in the emergency lighting and exit signs.

What he said^^^^^.

 

[dkidd]

OK, unless that has at least two transfer switches involved

Or Article 517.

 

[iwire]

Or Article 517.

Maybe but I am not getting that vibe.

It powers lights, exit signs, receptacles, hvac and process equipment, gas process cabinets and the loads have priorities

 

[mgookin]

I just checked the bldg code and see that they now prescribe "... batteries, unit equipment or emergency generator".

Old dog was taught a new trick today as the saying goes.

 

[Strathead]

It powers lights, exit signs, receptacles, hvac and process equipment, gas process cabinets and the loads have priorities

I am going to jump in here because this is a subject I have recently had the need to educate myself on.

First, what determines whether a system is an emergency system as defined by article 700 and definition 700.2? Someone else can quote but I don't have that ability. The definition throws the word "legally" in to it. Best I can tell, it is either of two ways. One, is that the AHJ determines that battery operated emergency lights alone are not adequate (technically each battery unit is a self contained code 700 system but I mention this just to stop the really picky people here), and they require an alternate power source, usually a generator sometimes an UPS. Second the customer decides to utilize a generator in lieu of individual battery units.

Either way, article 700 is invoked. In a nut shell that means, that the entire system, from panels, to transfer switches to conduit and wiring, must be kept separate and can ONLY be used to "supply, distribute and control power and illumination essential for safety to human life." Pretty much, that is lighting, fire alarm, fire pumps, and ventilation specifically designed to remove smoke from a fire. The wiring can NEVER be run in the same conduit as other wiring.

As far as I can tell, article 701 "Legally Required Standby Systems" will only, ever be installed when the AHJ determines they are required, otherwise no on would incur the expense and would merely feed all loads from and article 702 "Optional Standby Systems". So, if the AHJ determines, for example, that a sewage lift station in the basement must be powered by backup, or a handicap lift, a ventilation system for toxic gasses, or similar load, then you would be required to install the additional panels and transfer switches required. Note that the conduit and wiring can be intermingled for article 701, 702, and normal loads.

So, one last thing if you made it this far. Article 702 loads are basically anything and everything that is fed from two sources, such secondary source as an alternate service, generator, or UPS.

I am not going to propose a code revision, but it would make real sense to me, to require a permanent label on all article 700 Emergency, panels and transfer switches identifying them so that one doesn't have to research the entire distribution system to determine whether that refrigerator going to the EM panel is legal.

 

[dkidd]

, and ventilation specifically designed to remove smoke from a fire.

That's 701.

 

[Strathead]

That's 701.

Not according to many things I have read and at least one electrical Engineer that I have talked to and my sense.

 

[iwire]

That's 701.

Not according to many things I have read and at least one electrical Engineer that I have talked to and my sense.

I think it is up for debate but what I see being done in my area is smoke exhaust / pressurization systems on with the emergency supply.