EMRF

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jmellc

Senior Member
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Durham, NC
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Facility Maintenance Tech. Licensed Electrician
Has there been a thread on electromagnetic radio frequency "pollution"?

I've briefly heard of the issue. Had one customer concerned about it but we didn't have many answers for her. A friend has a customer who thinks he's having trouble with it. He's the first one I've heard of lately that wasn't a little out there to begin with, so I guess it's worth looking into.
 
jmellc said:
Has there been a thread on electromagnetic radio frequency "pollution"?

I've briefly heard of the issue. Had one customer concerned about it but we didn't have many answers for her. A friend has a customer who thinks he's having trouble with it. He's the first one I've heard of lately that wasn't a little out there to begin with, so I guess it's worth looking into.
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The WiFi spectrum, especially 2.4GHz can get crowded in offices and (especially) apartments, with everyone running their own routers/AP's. 5GHz WiFi can mitigate that somewhat because:

1) fewer people are using it (right now)
2) 5GHz doesn't penetrate walls as well, so it's more limited in range

As for RF "pollution" causing problems, it's rare with consumer-grade gear. I see it occasionally in industrial controls, where high-power / noisy equipment (VFD's) induce noise on analog signals, but even that's rare when proper wiring practices are followed.

RF causing illness is a myth pushed by the uninformed, and snake oil salesmen with something to sell. The only time RF can cause physiological symptoms is if you're REALLY near a high power RF transmitter. People have reported their fillings heating up, etc... but that's if you're standing NEXT to a multi KW transmitter (broadcast AM, FM, TV, etc...).


SceneryDriver
 
We run into it alot but mostly with the electromagnetic field's. Many of the same customers have petitioned the power company to try and get rid of the new meters as they cause havoc on some people.
 
pollution? that's exactly what 2.4GHz is good for, why do you think under cab microwaves use unlicensed 2.4GHz (less the fact 2.4 is resonance of water). you want less "pollution" then get into licensed bands :thumbsup:

the 2.4 or 5G channel(s) should be chosen far away from other channels being used by others(if possible).
 
Dennis Alwon said:
We run into it alot but mostly with the electromagnetic field's. Many of the same customers have petitioned the power company to try and get rid of the new meters as they cause havoc on some people.
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You mean those meters that use the same RF spectrum as the cell phones they probably have pressed to their ears? I will never understand this level of obstinately uninformed ignorance.


SceneryDriver
 
The World Health Organization says that electromagnetic hypersensitivity is not a result of exposure to electromagnetic fields.

http://www.who.int/peh-emf/publications/facts/fs296/en/ said:
The majority of studies indicate that EHS individuals cannot detect EMF exposure any more accurately than non-EHS individuals. Well controlled and conducted double-blind studies have shown that symptoms were not correlated with EMF exposure.

It has been suggested that symptoms experienced by some EHS individuals might arise from environmental factors unrelated to EMF. Examples may include “flicker” from fluorescent lights, glare and other visual problems with VDUs, and poor ergonomic design of computer workstations. Other factors that may play a role include poor indoor air quality or stress in the workplace or living environment.

There are also some indications that these symptoms may be due to pre-existing psychiatric conditions as well as stress reactions as a result of worrying about EMF health effects, rather than the EMF exposure itself.
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http://www.who.int/peh-emf/publications/facts/fs296/en/
 
I've been reading about the stuff for a while.

My opinion is that there is something there, but that there was no clarity as to what really is going on.

In one paper I read, the researcher did a very good job of setting a blinded system for a particular subject. The subject could not tell if the field was on or off. But the interesting result was that the subject reliably developed symptoms correlated to field changes (turn on or off).

My hunch/speculation is that some people can detect em fields at a subconscious level, and then develop symptoms in response to this sensation.

I am sure you've all experienced the annoying whine from a piece of equipment that is so high pitched you are not sure you hear it...but it feels good when the equipment is turned off. Just imagine something like a radio being played very quietly (say in a different room or apartment), playing music that you absolutely hate...but so quietly that you are not consciously aware of it until you are extremely quiet (say laying down to go to sleep) and you are not sure if it is real or if you are imagining it.

In the above situation, the sound is not directly causing injury. Yet from what we know about how stress effects the immune system, there clearly is a path by which low intensity sensation of sound could have health effects.

So my hunch (mentioned above) implies is that some people are somehow _detecting_ the emf, and then psychologically amplifying this into some sort of injury. The actual emf is not itself dangerous, but the result is real symptoms.

-Jon
 
I agree with you Winnie. I also think there are some people who are depressed and are looking for anything to help them with the unhappiness. I have seen some who seem legit and others who are just lost souls.. My term.

In either case, it does not matter to me. If there is an issue I will do what I can to correct it for them.

I had one customer who built a new home and she couldn't cook in the kitchen because it affected her. I noticed high electromagnetic field's when the light was turned on. Easy fix and it made her feel better. Who knows but I do believe that some people can feel it while most of us cannot
 
I think that much of this is bogus but on a recent apartment project they had a company come in and do a study where they took some kind of readings and found very "high levels". Their solution was to surround our conduit runs in welded plate aluminum. They also covered the entire ceiling of the service room in the same aluminum.

IMG_20160301_101341.jpg

IMG_20160301_101408.jpg
 
Let me see if I understand: Conductors inside grounded & bonded steel EMT that were already paired to prevent electromagnetic heating were inadequately shielded, but adding a non-magnetic aluminum panel solved the "problem"?
 
drcampbell said:
Let me see if I understand: Conductors inside grounded & bonded steel EMT that were already paired to prevent electromagnetic heating were inadequately shielded, but adding a non-magnetic aluminum panel solved the "problem"?
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Yup, I did say that IMO it was bogus. :D Unfortunately I never saw the "after" test results.
 
180429-2023 EDT

Can humans detect signals that they are not consciously aware of? Yes. I have been a subject in such experiments in 1953, and for a couple years after that I designed and built test equipment to perform such experiments.

On the other hand I do not believe that many people that claim electrosensitivity have it as claimed. Does a smart meter cause "dirty power"? No. Does a cellphone next to your ear all day long cause harm? Probably. Does a 60 Hz magnetic field of 10 milligauss cause a human problem. Quite possibly. Does substantial exposure close by to a high power radar cause eye damage? I have read that it does. Does radio diathermy affect the body? Yes. Is it good or bad? Probably good. Can birds detect the earth's magnetic field, and navigate from this information? Apparently.

Both the human eye and ear can detect very low power densities. Do we have other sensors that detect other signals? Possibly.

http://itsusync.com/different-types-of-brain-waves-delta-theta-alpha-beta-gamma

In the list of frequencies I found "7.83 Hz - The Schumann Resonance. Very grounding as it is the same frequency as the magnetic field of the earth." This is interesting because it is in a frequency range I have observed in ground (earth) voltage measurements.

.
 
If you want low magnetic fields:

1. Keep conductors for any load or individual circuit close together. Current carrying conductors should be in close proximity (same cable or raceway).


2. Make sure you have no wring errors. There must be absolutely no crossed (tied) neutrals from different circuits. There must be absolutely no neutral to ground contact after the service disconnect, anywhere. In other words if it won't pass a megger or hold a GFCI breaker with load on it, then it will produce strong magnetic fields.


3. Keep transformers and panelboards away from areas that will hold occupants for extended periods of time like bedrooms. Walls do not count, a panelboard on the opposite side of the wall is the same as having it in the room itself.

4. To further reduce the fields in 1 and 2, run twisted conductors like MC or AC- though if you follow 1 and 2 99% of your issue is already addressed.

If you want low static (captive) fields:

1. Run metallic raceways like EMT, GRC or AC cable. Make sure all boxes and cover plates are also metallic.


If you want low high frequency fields:


1. Do not use dimmers or any none linear loads. That means things like incandescent bulbs instead of florescent.

2. Do not use (have on property) WIFI or turn off Wifi by unplugging it.



That is the bulk of EMF mitigation. There are other things like shielding, steltzer filters, ect to be frank I have no idea how well they work (assuming they are legit in the first place) However, and fortunately for those concerned, most EMF mitigation comes from common sense practices like following the code and making sure no wiring errors exist in the building.
 
180429-2245 EDT

With whatever load distribution I have on my home main panel at the moment, and the cover off I can see about 1 milligauss a foot away. Three feet away it is aound 1/100 of that.

.
 
180430-1021 EDT

My previous post should have read about 1/20 instead of 1/100. And at 1/20 that is 10 microvolts, and the noise level of my meter. With the probe coil, gain, and filtering that level is the lowest I can read.

The WHO study as discussed in the reference at http://www.who.int/peh-emf/publications/facts/fs296/en/ did not provide any discussion on how the experiments were conducted. It would be interesting to know details of the experiments.

In the experiments in which I was involved we had the timing of the signal or lack of known, the presence of location or frequency, and existence were random. Your level of detection above that of chance was the measure of your ability to detect the signal.

Throughout my life I have been exposed to various moderate levels of RF from 30 to 150 MHz, 20 to 1000 W transmitters. But total percentage of time not very much.

When WLW was transmitting, I believe 700 kHz, at 500,000 W those operators were exposed over long time periods to rather high field levels. People some distance from the transmitter had their bed springs talk to them.

What effect radiation has on humans is very much a function of time duration, intensity, frequency, and what frequencies human components are tuned to.

I believe many complaints are the result of "snake oil salesmen", and ignorant persons that do not in any way analyze what they are told. Technically we have a very poorly educated population.

.
 
One of our moderators, Karly Riley, wrote the book on EMFs and invented the gaussmeter to measure, His video, tracing EMFs in building wiring makes the point that most of the time high emfs are due to wiring errors by electricians
Search UTube for this video
tracing emfs in building wiring and grounding by karl riley

He may of passed away I haven't seen him post for a while.
 
drcampbell said:
The World Health Organization says that electromagnetic hypersensitivity is not a result of exposure to electromagnetic fields.


http://www.who.int/peh-emf/publications/facts/fs296/en/
Click to expand...

unfortunately this set of folks have not been around long enough to conclude such. the impacts of Rf on humans can manifest into detected issues 50-60-80-200 yrs from now. a gene change from Rf in 1:1mil people is likely to never be detected using current methodologies. its like getting bloodwork done, they test a panel, but unless they are specifically looking for something not in the std panel then the item goes undetected even though it exists.

for a long time nobody thought 1,4 dioxane was an real issue to humans, now its been marked as "a likely carcinogen" at low doses!

for a long time the additives put into processed foods was thought to have great benefits, like less spoilage, longer lasting, low bacteria, etc etc. today it is known processed foods contain many chemicals that are bad for humans.

so in my book, to say Rf (emf) has no impact on humans, is a foolish thing to say.
 
unfortunately most of the people who claim expertise in this area are just plain charlatans trying to sell people things that serve no useful purpose other than enriching the sellers.

the very few serious researchers have never been able to do much more than show an occasional correlation between certain symptoms and EMI but no one to date has shown anything conclusive. Probably because there is not much money to be made exploring something like that.

my personal opinion is maybe there is something there, maybe not. I just don't see that the evidence is strong enough at present to make a clear judgment.
 
FionaZuppa said:
unfortunately this set of folks have not been around long enough to conclude such. the impacts of Rf on humans can manifest into detected issues 50-60-80-200 yrs from now. a gene change from Rf in 1:1mil people is likely to never be detected using current methodologies. its like getting bloodwork done, they test a panel, but unless they are specifically looking for something not in the std panel then the item goes undetected even though it exists.

for a long time nobody thought 1,4 dioxane was an real issue to humans, now its been marked as "a likely carcinogen" at low doses!

for a long time the additives put into processed foods was thought to have great benefits, like less spoilage, longer lasting, low bacteria, etc etc. today it is known processed foods contain many chemicals that are bad for humans.

so in my book, to say Rf (emf) has no impact on humans, is a foolish thing to say.
Click to expand...

I normally disagree, but here I will agree. There is margarine and hydrogenated oil which was believed to by healthier but turned out worse because our bodies don't know how to process it because it doesn't exist in nature or exist in that amount.
 
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