Enforcing 2008 NEC

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rodroche said:
I have an electrical inspector who is insisting that a project that has been under construction for 8 months has to have combination type AFCI circuit breakers (as of 1/1/0*). The building is a condo building, and we used three phase panels (CH) as each unit is very large, and very high end. The developer wanted lots of power. So we have 3 phase panels with bolt on circuit breakers. So far I have not been able to locate any bolt on CB's that are combination type AFCI, and CH flatly says they are not available. Inspector doesn't care, my problem, etc. Any way to get around this based upon non-availability?
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I am always amazed when I see people taking upon burdens that do not belong to them.

Where you working off of engineering drawings? What was specified on the drawing or in the spec? So it is the engineers problem.

The inspecotr is full of it. How can something that MAY become the requirement in the future planned for? Should the NEC edition has not approved and has not gone forward, engineering would have planned for something that is NOT required.

The last edition of the NEC will not be in force until your State accepts it, formally, unless the State accepts it automatically. If that is the case, the State is negligent in enforcing its sovereignty as it is relinquishing its right to self-government without interference from outside. The Code's effective date was August 15, 2007 so the so the speediest legistlation would have needed to act in less than 3 months to be a lawful requirement.

Seems like the actions of another Herr Adolf Inspektor!
 
QES said:
remember that the AHJ does not have to follow the NEC, they use the nec as a guide and sometime add some/modify codes.
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Such modifications would need to be published and since it is modification to a lawfully enforceable document, it shall be passed through the same State legistlative process as the Code had done so.

Such inspectors should be put on note that this is America, not Amerika.
 
Laszlo,
The inspecotr is full of it. How can something that MAY become the requirement in the future planned for? Should the NEC edition has not approved and has not gone forward, engineering would have planned for something that is NOT required.
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The requirement to use the combination type AFCI breakers is in the 2005 code with an effective date of 1/1/08, so starting then the use of the new AFCI breakers is required for any area that has adopted the 2005 NEC. The only real question is how that rule should be enforced. Should the combo types be required for jobs that are inspected after 1/1/08 or only for jobs that are permitted after 1/1/08.
Don
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
Laszlo,

The requirement to use the combination type AFCI breakers is in the 2005 code with an effective date of 1/1/08, so starting then the use of the new AFCI breakers is required for any area that has adopted the 2005 NEC. The only real question is how that rule should be enforced. Should the combo types be required for jobs that are inspected after 1/1/08 or only for jobs that are permitted after 1/1/08.
Don
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Don,

You're absolutely right, it was in the 2005 Code for bedrooms of dwelling units. Whatever is requested to be inspected before 1/1/08 should not need to meet those requirements, but if there are AFCI's installed, the inspector may NOT reject the installation.

Eaton Electric(CH) lists the Combination AFCI availability on their web-site.

1" 1 Pole Combination Arc Fault
For the 15A and 20A circuits of 1? BR Type loadcenters.*
?? 1 Pole Combination Arc Fault
For the 15A & 20A circuits of ?? CH Type loadcenters.*
?? 1 Pole Combination Arc Fault Plug On Neutral
For the 15A and 20A circuits of ?? CH Type loadcenters.*
* Recommended to be applied on all 15A and 20A circuits. This cannot be used on shared neutral applications.

I still maintain that the primary responsibility remains with the engineer, not the installer.
 
brantmacga said:
be careful with that. state laws supercede any local laws, and if your state adopts the NEC, chances are you will be required to follow it and you cannot make changes w/o their approval.
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brant, since you are a fellow Georgian, here's a question that I've not been able to figure out. Our county ordinance states "The National Electrical Code, the most current edition, as the same from time to time may be amended, shall be and is the code that will be utilized". It doesn't say anything about Ga amendments or until Ga adopts the code, it just says the most current edition,which, as of jan. 1 will be 2008. I have contacted both the department of community affairs as well as the state board asking whether or not a county can adopt the code before the state does, to no avail. My boss the commission chairman doesn't know and it seems no one else does either. All I need to know is what edition of the NEC to enforce come jan. 1. Seems to me that we would have to wait until the state officially adopts it before enforcement. Any ideas?:confused:
 
weressl said:
I still maintain that the primary responsibility remains with the engineer, not the installer.
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Unless it is a large multi dwelling unit there will be no electrical engineers involved.

ECs routinely do all the calculations and provide the very limited 'specifications' for dwelling units.
 
Our county ordinance states "The National Electrical Code, the most current edition, as the same from time to time may be amended, shall be and is the code that will be utilized"
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My understanding is that the courts have ruled that ordinances that are written in that manner not valid. The ordinance cannot adopt a code that does not exist at the time the ordinance is passed.
Don
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
My understanding is that the courts have ruled that ordinances that are written in that manner not valid. The ordinance cannot adopt a code that does not exist at the time the ordinance is passed.
Don
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The other legal argument would be that the legistlative process allows "outside" control without review into the States affair.
 
iwire said:
Unless it is a large multi dwelling unit there will be no electrical engineers involved.

ECs routinely do all the calculations and provide the very limited 'specifications' for dwelling units.
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Yes, we are getting too deep into the thread and I am getting mixed up with the other thread of multi-unit condo AFCI combo issue.

So the EC's will be going to get into the short circuit, protective device coordination and arc-flash calculations? Where will the line be drawn and by whom? When there is no clear demarcation on how far an EC can and should go, then there will be sooner than later legal issues and holes to be dug that will bury the small fishes and feed the sharks.
 
Funny political questions

Funny political questions

If Ga utilizes the new NEC whichever that happens to be then the adoption date for Ga is Aug 15, 2007 for the 2008 NEC and not Jan 1, 2008. Ignore the title and read the preface for the effective date.

Strictly speaking for any action to be criminal requires that a duly elected legislature specifically pass the rule. In practice most states have dodged this responsibility by delegating authority. They call it regulation. Back in the 1700's they called it a lack of representation.

As to enforcement all laws are in effect for the date of inspection regardless of the date of issuance of the permit. The permit is approval to work not approval to freeze the code. A builder is obligated to anticipate the code that will be in effect at the time of inspection. Problems with obtaining things like AFCIs require the builder to work around the problem until it can be fixed or to obtain a waiver from the AHJ. Missing a December deadline this year could cost a builder some expensive adjustments.
 
NEC Iowa edition

NEC Iowa edition

480Sparky. sounds like the receptionists in Ottumwa. and the inspectors there, they have two and each one seems to have their own quirks about what makes them happy. makes for lots of fun!!!!
Bigdog:smile:
 
Combination Arc Fault Breakers

Combination Arc Fault Breakers

STARTING 1-1-2008 THE INSPECTORS IN KY ARE MAKING US USE THE NEW COMBO BREAKERS, I CHECKED ON LINE FOR PRICES(SQUARE D 15 AMP COMBO) WAS $178.00 COMPARED TO THE REGULAR 15 AMP ARC FAULTS THAT WE HAVE BEEN USING FOR THE LAST YEAR AT $32.00, BIG INCREASE THAT WILL HAVE TO BE PASSED ON TO THE BUILDERS WHOM ARE ALREADY STRUGGLING . HAS ANY ONE PURCHASED THESE YET? HAVE ANY INFO ON THESE? :confused: :confused:
 
Please avoid posting in all CAPS. It looks like you're shouting at us. Shout at the manufacturers, we're on your side. ;)

Do you have a link for the breaker you found? Are you sure it wasn't a combination GFCI/AFCI breaker, instead of a "Combination-type AFCI"? There's a big difference.

I just looked, and couldn't find a combination type AFCI available for sale online, but it was a quick search.
 
Oh, My, now what?

Oh, My, now what?

480sparky said:
2007 utah.GIF
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I like it, it falls right up there with the Staples Button. " That was easy"..:)
 
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