Eng. spec'd all steel boxes on multi-family??

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brantmacga

brantmacga

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Working on a bid for an 88 unit apartment complex with 4 unit buildings and a community building. Unit buildings are 3-story.

The engineer has specified all steel boxes, and the devices have to be 4" square w/ plaster rings, and fixture boxes have to be 4 11/16" with plaster rings in the dwelling units; NM cable is allowed in the apartments only. 3-gang and up switches will have to be square corner boxes with plaster rings as well.

I've never seen specs like this, and before I call and ask, can anyone think of a reason it might be required? It is not a local ordinance.

They asked for value engineering options also that would be common for this type of installation, so I planned on pricing with nonmetallic boxes also; it's a giant pain though I've spent several hours building a new assembly database to meet these specs.

Another thing this engineer always requires is FMC for fixture whips; no MC or factory whips allowed. I always thought that was odd. I've never seen them require steel boxes on multi-family dwellings though.

Another oddity is that on the LV wiring for tel/com, they also want steel boxes with EMT conduit to the MDU boxes; no ENT allowed.


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Maybe the engineer is from a place like here in NY and is used to these practices everything that you stated is very standard here in the 5 boroughs

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It's been my experience that it's easier for an engineer to have a one size fits all set of specs they don't have to review and change for every job.

I've also been told engineers are often times paid a percentage of the project cost. So when I work on projects with engineers and the specs go above and beyond what the "usual practice" may be I figure it's probably just a money grab and a "cover their a#s" type of situation.
 
Cow said:
It's been my experience that it's easier for an engineer to have a one size fits all set of specs they don't have to review and change for every job.
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Agree - the engineer likely did not reconsider the application in their boiler plate spec.

Cow said:
I've also been told engineers are often times paid a percentage of the project cost. So when I work on projects with engineers and the specs go above and beyond what the "usual practice" may be I figure it's probably just a money grab and a "cover their a#s" type of situation.
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This idea is a misnomer. The engineer his/herself does not receive compensation for the project cost...at least not that I have seen. This would likely be a conflict of interest with engineering ethics.

Consulting firms do use anticipated project cost, size, type, etc. to gut-check their % fee. This doesn't mean after they are awarded the work they are doing themselves or the project any favors by over specifying the job. Not to say above code minimum design isn't prudent in some cases.
 
They asked for value engineering options also that would be common for this type of installation, so I planned on pricing with nonmetallic boxes also; it's a giant pain though I've spent several hours building a new assembly database to meet these specs.
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This should be simple. Do the takeoff using specified metal boxes/rings. You do have typical units of various types right? Do you do a device/fixture count per unit type and then multiply x number of units?
If you do, there's your counts.
Then just sub the price of the non-metallic boxes. I wouldn't worry about how accurate I was. I only give back half on most VE's anyway.

Several hours? Are you using estimating software? Those assemblies should already be there.
 
brantmacga said:
Working on a bid for an 88 unit apartment complex with 4 unit buildings and a community building. Unit buildings are 3-story.

The engineer has specified all steel boxes, and the devices have to be 4" square w/ plaster rings, and fixture boxes have to be 4 11/16" with plaster rings in the dwelling units; NM cable is allowed in the apartments only. 3-gang and up switches will have to be square corner boxes with plaster rings as well.

I've never seen specs like this, and before I call and ask, can anyone think of a reason it might be required? It is not a local ordinance.

They asked for value engineering options also that would be common for this type of installation, so I planned on pricing with nonmetallic boxes also; it's a giant pain though I've spent several hours building a new assembly database to meet these specs.

Another thing this engineer always requires is FMC for fixture whips; no MC or factory whips allowed. I always thought that was odd. I've never seen them require steel boxes on multi-family dwellings though.

Another oddity is that on the LV wiring for tel/com, they also want steel boxes with EMT conduit to the MDU boxes; no ENT allowed.


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There's no reason plastic boxes cant be used that I know of, unless the rated walls are over 2 hours, which is highly unlikely. EMT to the v/d/v is a huge waste of money but if they spec it, run it and make that money.

Are they speccing putty pads as well?
 
Cow said:
I've also been told engineers are often times paid a percentage of the project cost. So when I work on projects with engineers and the specs go above and beyond what the "usual practice" may be I figure it's probably just a money grab and a "cover their a#s" type of situation.
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We engineers definitely do not get paid based on the cost of the job, then we'd be contractors. As someone else stated cost of construction % is a thumb-in-the-air number but we are typically held to our proposed fee, which they typically step on a few times to lower us all down.

I've found the multi-family business to be the worst. They crush your fees, redesign a bunch of times, and then change it at the last minute again anyway. If you say "no" they will just go to the next cheaper engineer. Really a sector I dislike working in, at least here in the SE anyway. NYC area wasn't nearly as bad as this.
 
My only input is this. Without seeing the drawings if the engineer specs it out than that is what should be bid on and installed. I prefer metal boxes as they are stronger and more durable. I have done multiple apartments and housing for the elder. There are many different types of sound proofing used in these build outs. Party walls and ceilings can have different size hat and Z channels along with fiber board and double layers of sheet rock. from the front of the stud to the finish surface you could be built out 2.5". Pretty hard to set your plastic boxes under these conditions. You are right in offering an alternative to use plastic but it may cost you in the long run depending on the construction.
 
publicgood said:
The customer didn't engage in a VE exercise to get half the money back. Ethics.
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If there are multiple bidders that's going to tend to keep their pencils sharp. From what I've seen, it is typical to give back your costs but not the profit.
 
gadfly56 said:
If there are multiple bidders that's going to tend to keep their pencils sharp. From what I've seen, it is typical to give back your costs but not the profit.
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That is true. I only used "half" as an example. Of course it varies depending on risk and the amount. AND...it can also depend on if I want to drive the change to a product I want to install because of overkill, PITA install...etc

The OP is a good case to give back everything but profit because I don't like the idea of dealing with metal boxes/rings.

But on hard bids I bid 100% as specified. Then below the bottom line I will offer VE which were not requested, but I find savings. Those are VOLUNTARY...that's where I give back whatever I please.

Nothing unethical about that. You want to save X.....accept it or we will proceed as specified.
 
cdslotz said:
But on hard bids I bid 100% as specified. Then below the bottom line I will offer VE which were not requested, but I find savings. Those are VOLUNTARY...that's where I give back whatever I please.
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Today's jobs are not all plan/spec. We hope proposed VE items in other construction arrangements, say pre-CD, are 100% owner savings (minus a reasonable risk based on the stage of the project).
 
publicgood said:
The customer didn't engage in a VE exercise to get half the money back. Ethics.
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This comment touches an irritation bone for me. With all due respect, but what do you MEAN ethics? If there is anyone "unethical" here it would have to be the Engineer, and I am not saying they are, they are not (to be plain) they are just closer to the line than the electrical contractor. We do our estimates for free. Then when we win the project, we do additional work to "correct" the engineer's over the top specification and we were likely low in the first place for the customer to be asking us for a VE. We are entitled to charge all the way from low end to the top of what the market will bear. Is it unethical for a fire alarm service company to charge $170 per hour? Their tech doesn't get paid any more than I do. No, it isn't, we should all envy them and hope to one day work under a similar business model.
 
I'll give a recap of my conversation with the GC....

A lot of this job is over-engineered I'm told; other trades are calling with the same responses.

The GC is wanting to show the owner, who they've built other facilities for, just how much extra money the arch/eng is trying to have them spend.

I was told bid it to spec, then bid it to code.


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I was told bid it to spec, then bid it to code.
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Really? Screw that....That could be two complete different jobs...and takoff. Plus the EE would never go for that.

I would tell the GC, I will give you a shopping list of VE items off of the specified design.
 
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