Okay, I'm the engineer, and I reviewed the light fixture submittals for the job and missed that the voltage for one type of fixture was 120V instead of 208V as the plans show. So the electrician who ordered the fixtures charges the owner extra to pull the neutral for the 120V fixtures. Does the electrician not share some responsibility for not reviewing his own order against the plans? The way I understand it is that submittal review is a service to the engineer's customer to make sure they are getting the quality of materials that were specified in the plans - not a tool to relieve the electrican from any responsibility for the order.
Engineer reviews submittals--Is he on the hook?
- Thread starter donw
- Start date
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No, the plans show a 208 volt circuit, the vendor prepared the submittals wrong and it got by you, (and obviously the EC, didn't he review and stamp them?) this doesn't relieve the EC from supplying the correct fixtures for the circuit.
All of the Contract Documents must be met, not just an approved set of submittals.
In the future I would include in your stamp something along the lines of "verify all voltages with the appropriate sheet of the plans"
Roger
All of the Contract Documents must be met, not just an approved set of submittals.
In the future I would include in your stamp something along the lines of "verify all voltages with the appropriate sheet of the plans"
Roger
cadpoint
Senior Member
- Location
- Durham, NC
Big,
Go get your rubber stamp, have the EC pull his two wires back and forth and tape one White. I'm assuming metal box and conduit.
I'm still suffering from 208 V lights with no neutral, Op well ...
Go get your rubber stamp, have the EC pull his two wires back and forth and tape one White. I'm assuming metal box and conduit.
I'm still suffering from 208 V lights with no neutral, Op well ...
chris kennedy
Senior Member
- Location
- Miami Fla.
- Occupation
- 60 yr old tool twisting electrician
I have to agree with Roger. Someone should have caught that before it got to you.
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician
cadpoint said:Big,
Go get your rubber stamp, have the EC pull his two wires back and forth and tape one White. I'm assuming metal box and conduit.
I'm still suffering from 208 V lights with no neutral, Op well ...
What size conductors is he using, assuming that they can be re-identified as a grounded conductor?
chris kennedy
Senior Member
- Location
- Miami Fla.
- Occupation
- 60 yr old tool twisting electrician
infinity said:
Good point, we all know that a conductor 6 or smaller will burst into flames if you put tape on it.
quogueelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- new york
Engineer review is supposed to be a review
Engineer review is supposed to be a review
However the electricians usually submit fixture substitutions to work out a better price with a fixture vendor. As in any larger purchase with one manufacturer a contractor can reduce his costs by substituting a similar fixture for a spec fixture. was the original fixture the correct voltage?? I dont think that the fixture vendor would intentionaly try to substitute a fixture that was a different voltage. But from my end of the project the architects job is to submit a set of working plans. In order to make money I need to install quickly and eficiently what is drawn on the print when I have to stop and ask for direction because what is on the drawings doesnt work I am losing money for a problem which is not mine. If the contractor is trying to charge you for a total rewire because the 208 requires 2 wires also the solution is to put a note on the prints for the contractor to verify all voltages in the field in the future to cya. I hate when an architect aproves a 6 inch tall high hat in a 5 inch soffit why should that be my problem??
Engineer review is supposed to be a review
However the electricians usually submit fixture substitutions to work out a better price with a fixture vendor. As in any larger purchase with one manufacturer a contractor can reduce his costs by substituting a similar fixture for a spec fixture. was the original fixture the correct voltage?? I dont think that the fixture vendor would intentionaly try to substitute a fixture that was a different voltage. But from my end of the project the architects job is to submit a set of working plans. In order to make money I need to install quickly and eficiently what is drawn on the print when I have to stop and ask for direction because what is on the drawings doesnt work I am losing money for a problem which is not mine. If the contractor is trying to charge you for a total rewire because the 208 requires 2 wires also the solution is to put a note on the prints for the contractor to verify all voltages in the field in the future to cya. I hate when an architect aproves a 6 inch tall high hat in a 5 inch soffit why should that be my problem??
Thanks, guys, for your support. The vendor's submittals did say "check voltage", and I guess I was thinking the electrician would. Another monkey wrench was that half of the fixtures were supposed to be reused existing fixtures, but the electrician didn't check the vendor, and actually ordered and replaced the existing ones--and charged the client for that, too!
quogueelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- new york
substitution
substitution
substitution
Which leads me to believe that the original fixture was the wrong voltage. A fixture vendor will not try to substitute a fixture with a diferent voltage in my experience.roger said:
cadpoint
Senior Member
- Location
- Durham, NC
Big,
I won't use that statement as any defense, only mid-size to larger jobs
(plans) get the the estimater / pricer of only the larger supply houses.
I won't use that statement as any defense, only mid-size to larger jobs
(plans) get the the estimater / pricer of only the larger supply houses.
dbuckley
Senior Member
- Location
- Canterbury, New Zealand
From the point of view of both the electrician and the customer - whats the point of paying for and have an engineer sign off the document if the engineer isn't going to carry the can? Thats the whole point, surely...? And why the engineer caries professional indemnity insurance, to pay for his errors when he screws up?
dbuckley,
As an engineer, I do not seal the submittals. It is not a my work product. In fact, I have no control of the actual order placement - quantities, etc. Do most electricians simply rely on the engineer's review of THEIR vendor submittal - and not review it themselves? I hope not. As was mentioned earlier, many submittals contain "value engineering" and many come from non-recommended vendors. I think I'll develop a stamp that says something along the lines of "This approval signifies that this submittal meets the general quality requirements of the plans/specifications. Review of the technical/compatibility specifics of the equipment depicted shall be the resposibility of the contractor."
This contractor also submitted a service entrance drawing that was NEMA 3R instead of NEMA 1, and wouldn't have fit in the SES closet. Thankfully, I cought it.
As an engineer, I do not seal the submittals. It is not a my work product. In fact, I have no control of the actual order placement - quantities, etc. Do most electricians simply rely on the engineer's review of THEIR vendor submittal - and not review it themselves? I hope not. As was mentioned earlier, many submittals contain "value engineering" and many come from non-recommended vendors. I think I'll develop a stamp that says something along the lines of "This approval signifies that this submittal meets the general quality requirements of the plans/specifications. Review of the technical/compatibility specifics of the equipment depicted shall be the resposibility of the contractor."
This contractor also submitted a service entrance drawing that was NEMA 3R instead of NEMA 1, and wouldn't have fit in the SES closet. Thankfully, I cought it.
bradleyelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- forest hill, md
donw said:
Looks to me like the electrician changed the voltage to the fixtures, not you. You did approve the fact that he could. Up to him to make the changed fixtures work. Otherwise, its between him and his vendor.
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
That is an important point. An engineer cannot seal a document not prepared by that engineer or under that engineer?s supervision. There are instances (and this is not one of them) in which an engineer can review someone else?s work, write a report that describes the review and its results, and then seal that report. Even so, the engineer?s responsibility is limited to the contents of the report, not the contents of the document addressed in the review.donw said:
I think you need to shop around for other possible ways to word that. Regrettably, my current company does not have a standard stamp for this purpose, else I would quote that for you. But I would avoid use of the word ?approval? and any of its derivative forms. You are not approving the submittal; you are offering comments (i.e., ?revise and resubmit?) or you are stating that you have no comments.donw said:
bradley,
I think you're right that the electrician changed the voltage of the fixtures. I was looking at the American Institute of Architects contract A201 (General Conditions of the Contract for Construction) which states the following:
? 3.12.6 By approving and submitting Shop Drawings, Product Data, Samples and similar submittals, the Contractor
represents that the Contractor has determined and verified materials, field measurements and field construction
criteria related thereto, or will do so, and has checked and coordinated the information contained within such
submittals with the requirements of the Work and of the Contract Documents.
? 3.12.7 The Contractor shall perform no portion of the Work for which the Contract Documents require submittal
and review of Shop Drawings, Product Data, Samples or similar submittals until the respective submittal has been
approved by the Architect.
? 3.12.8 The Work shall be in accordance with approved submittals except that the Contractor shall not be relieved of
responsibility for deviations from requirements of the Contract Documents by the Architect's approval of Shop
Drawings, Product Data, Samples or similar submittals unless the Contractor has specifically informed the Architect
in writing of such deviation at the time of submittal and (1) the Architect has given written approval to the specific
deviation as a minor change in the Work, or (2) a Change Order or Construction Change Directive has been issued
authorizing the deviation. The Contractor shall not be relieved of responsibility for errors or omissions in Shop
Drawings, Product Data, Samples or similar submittals by the Architect's approval thereof.
So the can't "slip in" a change without bringing it to the Architect's (engineer, as consultant to Architect) attention, and the Contractor isn't relieved of responsibility for errors in shop drawings by the engineer's approval.
Charlie b,
You're right, I don't like the wording either. But I was reading a commentary on A201 that said that not approving submittals by using other wording does not protect you - you still either approved it or rejected it. Recommended wording for submittal stamp was "No responsibility is assumed for correctness of dimensions or details." Maybe mine should be "No responsibility is assumed for correctness of voltages/compatibility or details."
I think you're right that the electrician changed the voltage of the fixtures. I was looking at the American Institute of Architects contract A201 (General Conditions of the Contract for Construction) which states the following:
? 3.12.6 By approving and submitting Shop Drawings, Product Data, Samples and similar submittals, the Contractor
represents that the Contractor has determined and verified materials, field measurements and field construction
criteria related thereto, or will do so, and has checked and coordinated the information contained within such
submittals with the requirements of the Work and of the Contract Documents.
? 3.12.7 The Contractor shall perform no portion of the Work for which the Contract Documents require submittal
and review of Shop Drawings, Product Data, Samples or similar submittals until the respective submittal has been
approved by the Architect.
? 3.12.8 The Work shall be in accordance with approved submittals except that the Contractor shall not be relieved of
responsibility for deviations from requirements of the Contract Documents by the Architect's approval of Shop
Drawings, Product Data, Samples or similar submittals unless the Contractor has specifically informed the Architect
in writing of such deviation at the time of submittal and (1) the Architect has given written approval to the specific
deviation as a minor change in the Work, or (2) a Change Order or Construction Change Directive has been issued
authorizing the deviation. The Contractor shall not be relieved of responsibility for errors or omissions in Shop
Drawings, Product Data, Samples or similar submittals by the Architect's approval thereof.
So the can't "slip in" a change without bringing it to the Architect's (engineer, as consultant to Architect) attention, and the Contractor isn't relieved of responsibility for errors in shop drawings by the engineer's approval.
Charlie b,
You're right, I don't like the wording either. But I was reading a commentary on A201 that said that not approving submittals by using other wording does not protect you - you still either approved it or rejected it. Recommended wording for submittal stamp was "No responsibility is assumed for correctness of dimensions or details." Maybe mine should be "No responsibility is assumed for correctness of voltages/compatibility or details."
hmspe
Senior Member
- Location
- Temple, TX
- Occupation
- PE
My submittal review stamp reads:
"This review is for general conformance with the plans and specifications only. Any deviations from the plans and specifications not clearly noted have not been reviewed. This review does not constitute a complete check and shall not relieve the contractor of any contractual responsibility for any error or deviation from contract requirements."
There are check boxes for []Reviewed, []Revise and resubmit, []Make corrections noted, and []Rejected.
I don't review anything that appears to be "value engineering". That's written into my plan specs. I consider "value engineering" to be the practice of engineering by a non-registrant.
Martin
"This review is for general conformance with the plans and specifications only. Any deviations from the plans and specifications not clearly noted have not been reviewed. This review does not constitute a complete check and shall not relieve the contractor of any contractual responsibility for any error or deviation from contract requirements."
There are check boxes for []Reviewed, []Revise and resubmit, []Make corrections noted, and []Rejected.
I don't review anything that appears to be "value engineering". That's written into my plan specs. I consider "value engineering" to be the practice of engineering by a non-registrant.
Martin
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