Engineers in Virginia

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brian john

Senior Member
Location
Kilmarnock, Va
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Retired after 52 years in the trade.
A customer of mine is having issues with an engineer. The engineer specified EMT for a fire pump feeder, from the main disconnect in the electric room to the pump controller 100 feet away. The EC informed him it need to be MI, encased in concrete or in a framed bulk head with proper fire rating. The Engineer accused the EC of trying to rip off the customer, the EC then went to the AHJ and the AHJ wrote a letter stating the EC was right.

The engineers stance is that he as the design engineer has precedence over the AHJ and the NEC in Virginia. Am I missing something?


Do any of the Virginia members know who in the state would issue a letter stating that in Virginia the NEC is the electrical code and that this engineer cannot overwrite the NEC?
 
The engineer has a serious ego problem. Registration as a PE does not convey to a person the authority to violate the law. And the NEC is law. I can't speak for any local rules Virginia might possess, but I am confident that they do not empower engineers to do whatever they wish, without regard to code or to code authority.
 
He may be looking at 695.6(B) Exception.
That still does not give him the authority to override the AHJ.
He can disagree all he wants, but the AHJ is ... uh ... the Authority Having Jurisdiction - if you know what I mean.
Fire pumps ain't a good place for cutting corners.

db
 
Brian, I suggest asking the engineer to obtain a written approval for his design from the AHJ, or at least something in writing that legally backs up his assertion.
 
I researched this issue last year for a somewhat different reason.

The way the NEC is implemented in Ohio is through the Ohio Building Code, which is a fancy name for a particular section of the Ohio Administrative Code. Ohio has the OAC online and I found the appropriate sections and wrote up a letter myself explaining that the state has three governing documents that contain all of the laws, that the building code is section xxx, and then calling out and quoting the article and scope sections to show that the NEC has the force of law in certain applications.

Keep in mind that there may be ways to construe that the plant manager of an industrial plant can act as the AHJ and approve deviations if that individual is willing to accept the responsibility. I know of situations involving fire pumps in large industrial campuses where meeting 695 would result in a lower quality, less reliable installation than following the typical design practices employed in the plant.

I would suggest that you or your customer could write a letter like I did explaining why the NEC is the law. Just keep in mind that a plant manager can act as the AHJ in some situations, effectively bypassing the governmental NEC enforcement.
 
brian john said:
The engineers stance is that he as the design engineer has precedence over the AHJ and the NEC in Virginia. Am I missing something?
Click to expand...

I second Charlie b; this guy is an egomaniac. As for what to do about it, I'm not sure. Contact his supervisor / team leader?

I don't really think you need a letter stating that the engineer can't supercede the NEC anymore than you would need a letter stating that he can't steal a car. He can't do it and it doesn't matter what he thinks. You shouldn't need to prove that to him.
 
The company requiring the fire pump probably has property insurance through a firm such as Factory Mutual. They would probably be interested in this matter. They may already be involved. Most insurance carriers have relatively strict requirements pertaining to fire safety.
db
 
charlie b said:
The engineer has a serious ego problem. Registration as a PE does not convey to a person the authority to violate the law. And the NEC is law. I can't speak for any local rules Virginia might possess, but I am confident that they do not empower engineers to do whatever they wish, without regard to code or to code authority.
Click to expand...
NEC is not itself a U.S. law, NEC use is commonly mandated by state or local law.
 
brian john said:
The engineers stance is that he as the design engineer has precedence over the AHJ and the NEC in Virginia.
Click to expand...

I agree - what an ego!
We all know that only the electrical inspector can override the AHJ/NEC!:D:D:D:wink:

How much of the 100' run is outside of the electrical and pump rooms?

If a lot, have you priced the 2-hr rated power cables?
or just the cost of a fire rated enclosure/encasement?
 
wptski said:
NEC is not itself a U.S. law, NEC use is commonly mandated by state or local law.
Click to expand...
I am well aware of that. My point was that, (1) By virtue of the fact that Virginia has adopted the NEC, the NEC is law, in Virginia, and (2) That fact puts it beyond the authority of an engineer to circumvent the NEC.
 
wasasparky said:
I agree - what an ego!
We all know that only the electrical inspector can override the AHJ/NEC!:D:D:D:wink:

How much of the 100' run is outside of the electrical and pump rooms?

If a lot, have you priced the 2-hr rated power cables?
or just the cost of a fire rated enclosure/encasement?
Click to expand...

It doesn't seem to me that a 1 hour enclosure would be all that expensive to run for 100'. especially since much of the 100' might be in the electrical and equipment room where its not required.
 
petersonra said:
It doesn't seem to me that a 1 hour enclosure would be all that expensive to run for 100'. . .
Click to expand...
From 695.6(A) . . . Where supply conductors cannot be physically routed outside buildings, they shall be permitted to be routed through buildings where installed in accordance with 230.6(1) or (2). . .

236.6 Conductors Considered Outside the Building. Conductors shall be considered outside of a building or other structure under any of the following conditions:
(1) Where installed under not less than 50 mm (2 in.) of concrete beneath a building or other structure
(2) Where installed within a building or other structure in a raceway that is encased in concrete or brick not less than 50 mm (2 in.) thick
 
petersonra said:
It doesn't seem to me that a 1 hour enclosure would be all that expensive to run for 100'. especially since much of the 100' might be in the electrical and equipment room where its not required.
Click to expand...

Thats why I asked.
The run could be next to nothing, or nearly the full 100'.

Depending how far along they are in construction, it could be very difficult to fix if there are ceilings and a bunch of other junk to work around. Also height of conduit run, etc...
 
Brian,
are there multiple sources for this fire pump?
if so, where is the point of automatic connection between sources?
 
I'm not familiar with the amendments made to the code by the state of VA, or the jurisdiction in the case in point (since there's an outside chance that something may apply ?). I have only been involved in one case where we did a job completely supervised by an engineer, where the ahj ceded authority (in that case by virtue of the fact that the engineer was also qualified as an inspector in that jurisdiction - which was in Mont. County, MD, and also structural not electrical). On Federal properties, we have done work which was sort of outside the scope of NEC, so we did what the engineer put in writing, but not something like this where the rules are so specific. So I'm wondering if maybe this installation might be some type of supervised installation where the code might not strictly apply, or maybe one of the oddball code sections might actually apply ? (is this >600v supervised installation that meets 215.2 B 3 ?). I can't imagine an engineer hanging his butt out so far for no good reason (not that its not in the realm of possibility)
 
The age old question - Who has more authority the local AHJ or the stamped PE engineer. The AHJ has been in the trade for 30 years or so with his Masters electrical licence, the engineer has also been in the trade 30 years with couple college degrees, and couple 8-hr engineering tests behind him. My question would be if there was an unfortunate aciedent who would be at fault. The AHJ because he signed off on the project, or engineer because the project was designed and installed as directed? I would say the PE with the ego because the AHJ would point finger at the higher qualified individual, and I think the insurance companies would too!

- JWC

If all fails go in front of the state board to solve it. then you will see who has the bigger ego
 
JW, the thorn in your argument is that we can't do non-compliant installations and claim that we were told to do it that way. The right answer is for us to stop and point it out to the engineer. If he stands firm, then we should introduce him to the AHJ.

We shouldn't get stuck in the middle between two immovable walls. Let them battle it out and inform us when they've come to an agreement. If the GC has a problem with that, introduce him to the two. The delay is not our fault; nor should it be.

Added: The AHJ clearly has the greater clout, legally speaking.
 
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The the two immovable walls should meet with the state to see what is in compliance. In the mean time the project gets delayed then I would think it is the PE responsibility to find the quickest solution or he is subject to delay fees. Then you can have Mr. PE meet Mr. Owner and tell Mr Owner what is not compliant. Someone will move fast

Leagally the PE is responsible for his design, otherwise why would you need him in the first place.
 
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