Estimate I've been avoiding, what a mess

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Mule

Mule

Senior Member
Location
Oklahoma
I got a commercial client that wants me to add some circuits at his house. I've been avoiding him because his house is a code nightmare and I dont know how to approach it. Hoping some one will have a good idea..Here's the scope

Existing service...

total electric home...say 2000 2200ft

riser=250 or 350 copper at a visual glance, which has improper overhead clearance due to a past sunroom addition. Service drop is less than 1ft from ridge and roof pitch is less than 4:12

one 150amp main right behind the meter, then paraleled from that main to a 100amp panel with main and 20 circuits . The 150 feeds the furnace and HWT and the 100 feeds everthing else. This panel is full of piggy's. AND someone has built a cabinet around these panels and access doesnt meet code but is decent, but limited. meaning NO room for expansion..bla

THEN, tapped straight off the meter outside is another 150 amp feeder with no protection or bonding. Runs approx 30-35 cir/ft via emt to attached mother-in-law suite and lands in a closet with a 150amp main and brk panel which is also full of piggy's this unit is ttl electric with exception of propane furnace.

The mother in law suite is hardly ever used, other than entertaining occasional guest. ie family at holidays

So the customer wants to add a hot tub , fish pond outlet,(these items are near the MIL suite) then add a outdoor kitchen outlet, and a 20amp/240v outlet for electric heater for the sunroom which is nearest the main service.

Geez, I dont know where to start......If load calc's even passed, how do I deal with all of the existing violations just to add what he wants? especially the six switch rule..The mother in law suite is attached so its the same structure IMO....I told him a new riser, meter, gutter with disconects could run a couple of grand real quick, he didnt like that at all. Then he needs sub panels or total change out....

Any thoughts...........
 
Just give him the price of what it will take for you to do it minimally and legally. He can either like it or not, but that's what you need to do.
 
Mule do you're work to code! The inspector will inspect what you did? IF the homeowner doesnt like the price, then tough, It's sounds like you need to redo his service.
 
I thought about asking him to convert the range in the MIL suite to propane. The MIL suite is only about 700ft and has no load...Use that circuit for the hot tub load wise. But then there are all these other issues........It frustrates the heck out of me, if only the past electricians had done it right...
 
Mule said:
suite to propane. The MIL suite is only about 700ft ...
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Only???? 700 thats pretty far away, Is the wire sized correctly?

Better get used to things not right. Thats how we make out living lol. It is refreshing though to go somewhere and see excellent craftsmanship
 
jmsbrush said:
Only???? 700 thats pretty far away, Is the wire sized correctly?

Better get used to things not right. Thats how we make out living lol. It is refreshing though to go somewhere and see excellent craftsmanship
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Sorry its 700sq/ft not 700 ft away
 
mdshunk said:
See if you can set up a site visit with the inspector. That really helps me sometimes.
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Yea, I talked to him late last week about it, and he wanted to look at it first before making comments. The customer was out of town, so I thought I would wait so I would have access.
 
Mule said:
Geez, I dont know where to start......If load calc's even passed, how do I deal with all of the existing violations just to add what he wants? especially the six switch rule..The mother in law suite is attached so its the same structure IMO....I told him a new riser, meter, gutter with disconects could run a couple of grand real quick, he didnt like that at all. Then he needs sub panels or total change out....

Any thoughts...........
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If he doesn't like the 2 grand price ( or ever how much) I would let him get a second opinion. Have him call a couple of other contractors out to get quotes, I really don't think they will beat your price and your assessment of the job sounds reasonable.

As the electrician you will know what it will take to do the job right now all you have to do is sell it to the customer.
 
growler said:
If he doesn't like the 2 grand price ( or ever how much) I would let him get a second opinion. Have him call a couple of other contractors out to get quotes, I really don't think they will beat your price and your assessment of the job sounds reasonable.

As the electrician you will know what it will take to do the job right now all you have to do is sell it to the customer.
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Im confident he will trust me.....in fact when I suggested the 2grand and the new service....the Mrs (which is a sweetheart) said "honey we really need to get that done" LOL I thought that was funny...but hubby is tight tight tight haha any way I was just trying to be creative....

So is it one structure or two? if its two...I can add a main at the service, redistribute the load as I mentioned earlier. I think its one structure and one service...
 
You stated the MIL suit was attached so it would be one structure. As others have stated give him a price and leave it at that. The situation you have described sounds like a mess and it may turn out to be more than a two grand mess.
 
ceb58 said:
You stated the MIL suit was attached so it would be one structure. As others have stated give him a price and leave it at that. The situation you have described sounds like a mess and it may turn out to be more than a two grand mess.
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Yea, I just wanted to see if I was missing something.....The next problem if I build the new service, there is very little was space to get all of this done, probably about 3-3.5ft wide, and I have to hit existing chase nipples, and meter, gutter and three disconnects...at least thats the only way I see to do it. Maybe a large convertable feed thru panel? All of the interior branch circuits land in existing panels via emt from slab and attic......did I mention two story.....geez
 
This is my take on this.

I think deep down you know that to do this job properly it's going to cost more than 2 grand.

You're afraid if you quote the price it will really take to do this job proplerly, you'll will make the guy angry and he'll find another electrician to do his work and he'll bad mouth you to other people.

I believe this is why you've been avoiding this estimate.

This job sounds like a lot more than 2 grand to me.
 
Everone has to make their own decision of what they can charge. Some contractors will give the homeowner of a business that they work for jobs at cost or below knowing that in the long term they can make up the difference over time on the commercial account . But be very careful if you do this because you could get stung!
 
aline said:
This is my take on this.

I think deep down you know that to do this job properly it's going to cost more than 2 grand.

You're afraid if you quote the price it will really take to do this job proplerly, you'll will make the guy angry and he'll find another electrician to do his work and he'll bad mouth you to other people.

I believe this is why you've been avoiding this estimate.

This job sounds like a lot more than 2 grand to me.
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Alright Mr. Encourager....you ask for it....I believe you don't have a clue about my market, AND you don't have a clue about my thoughts. You have a direct opposite business aproach than mine, and you've just confirmed in my mind that I AM taking the right path. I believe I have a much closer connection to my customer than you will ever have..Im not afraid of anything, its called respect for your customers wallet, and you might try it some time...This particular customer is long time close friend, and I take offense to your comments.
 
I talked this customer very briefly today on the phone, and I told him that in "good concious" I could not do the work with the existing code issues at hand. And, I would like to encourage him to build a new service, and if he would consider the 2grand price range, I would happy to figure it for him, but only after I personaly walked him through the reasons, and he said "Ok" lets talk.
 
Mule said:
Alright Mr. Encourager....you ask for it....I believe you don't have a clue about my market, AND you don't have a clue about my thoughts. You have a direct opposite business aproach than mine, and you've just confirmed in my mind that I AM taking the right path. I believe I have a much closer connection to my customer than you will ever have..Im not afraid of anything, its called respect for your customers wallet, and you might try it some time...This particular customer is long time close friend, and I take offense to your comments.
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Wow! You sure get upset easily. My comments were not meant offend you in anyway and I apologize if they did. There are many things I'm afraid of. Sometimes fear can be a good thing.

I mentioned this because I've been in the same situation that you described and I'll admit I've been afraid of losing a good commercial account if I didn't price his personal job at a low price.

I have a great deal of respect for my customers and their wallets but I also have a great deal of respect for my family and my wallet as well.

Try not to be so sensitive. It's just a forum. :)

From now on I'll only try to make comments that will make you happy and that you'll agree with instead of speaking what's really on my mind. :)
 
aline said:
Wow! You sure get upset easily. My comments were not meant offend you in anyway and I apologize if they did. There are many things I'm afraid of. Sometimes fear can be a good thing.

I mentioned this because I've been in the same situation that you described and I'll admit I've been afraid of losing a good commercial account if I didn't price his personal job at a low price.

I have a great deal of respect for my customers and their wallets but I also have a great deal of respect for my family and my wallet as well.

Try not to be so sensitive. It's just a forum. :)

From now on I'll only try to make comments that will make you happy and that you'll agree with instead of speaking what's really on my mind. :)
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:roll: counting 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10.......I accept your apology
 
Communicate, and put it in a drawing and written form

Communicate, and put it in a drawing and written form

Your on the right track. I think 2 grand isn't even going to cover the cost of the equipment and wire your going to need. Talk to the inspector and see what he will allow.
I had an instructor in college. He said the favor you did for your brother in law was the one that will tie you up for 6 months and cost you dearly, legally, and professionally.
Put a plan together. Itemize. Communicate. Its not fair if you rip into your friends service and find that the inspector is looking for a reason to clean up his mistakes for the last 5 years in letting this go on. Keep your emotions under wraps and make dollar and sense decisions. If you blow this you might not be able to help the next customer that really needs it.
 
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