Estimate T&M

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bkludecke said:
It is the law in CA, for home improvement contracts, that a contractor must give a 'not to exceed' price (even for troubleshooting). I find this to be an offensive and lousy law, but it's the law just the same.
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The laws were made to protect the consumer, not the contractor, they are consumer protection laws not contractor potection laws, In my state any job over $500 needs an upfront written contract price, It sounds as if there are a lot ot contractors out there with poor extimating skills, the $500 limit allows you to do troubleshoot work.

To skirt the law give them a troubleshoot price of $490, then once you find the problem, then give them the cost of repairs contract price.
 
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brian john said:
T&M NTE, We do this all the time, T&M Not To Exceed.
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i've never understood this concept...the contractor takes all the risk and the customer receives all the rewards...
 
rewire

rewire

It appears to be just about a total rewire! As growler suggested, flat rate would be the way to go on this one. What ever time you think it will take you,multiply that times at least three(3)!!! Yes that laundry is sweet!
 
480sparky said:
If the job isn't done, oh well.
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Good luck on that one. We've actually had to do that not to exceed thing before. It works under the right circumstances, but not much, and there has only been a handful that just absolutely had to have it. Even if you go 2-3x what it should take, it is amazing how happy they will be just to have a number. :roll:
 
Thanks for all of the input. I'm still in the negotiation stage of this one. I'm a one man show and I''m not sure if I want to tie up this much time when I can be out making Service Calls. I like small jobs, room additions, one or two room remodels, Service Upgrade(s) and troubleshooting.

I'll keep everyone updated on this one.

Again thanks for your replies.
 
I agree with tallguy, as an HO having a contractor come in and tell me that the cost is a mystery would leave with a bad feeling. When I come on a job like this I tend to break everything down and try to assign a rough time time to it, add a little more and tell the HO that if all goes well it will be in "this" range. When things start going wrong, or taking longer, just keep the owners up to speed on what is going on perhaps with a revised estimate. While some HO's want the world for free, I find that most just want good communication.
 
cowboyjwc said:
"Somewhere between $150 and $10,000. Could be more, could be less, but I wouldn't count on less."
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My experience's with saying something like this is they only remember the $150 part.

One thing I have learned is when you give a budget, don't low ball they will always remember that low number and feel like anything over it a cheat.
 
ITO said:
One thing I have learned is when you give a budget, don't low ball they will always remember that low number and feel like anything over it a cheat.
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This is very true. That why any price quoted should be formal. A written quote with an attached scope of work. Never depend on anyone's memory, state exactly what you are going to do and for how much.
 
tallguy said:
I too thought cowboy's numbers were low... AFTER seeing the pics. I like the laundry room especially.
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OK, no fair I gave that before I saw the pics and I was really only joking anyways.:D

Now being serious, on a project like this, what I used to do is, do it one project at a time, let him know where you are cost wise and then he decides whether you move on or not, then move on to the next one on his list of priorites and again let him know where you are, and so on and so on. That way you don't have his house completely torn up and a price that he can't swallow.
 
cowboyjwc said:
...do it one project at a time, let him know where you are cost wise and then he decides whether you move on or not, then move on to the next one on his list of priorites and again let him know where you are, and so on and so on...
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That is a good idea. I will talk with the HO tomorrow and I'll try to steer them in this direction.
 
cowboyjwc said:
Now being serious, on a project like this, what I used to do is, do it one project at a time, let him know where you are cost wise and then he decides whether you move on or not, then move on to the next one on his list of priorites and again let him know where you are, and so on and so on. That way you don't have his house completely torn up and a price that he can't swallow.
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That may work but for over all cost and effeciency it's not a good method. The house looks empty but it probably won't be forever. The most effecient way to work is to do everything at once. That way all the holes are repaired at once, it's all painted at one time, it's all inspected at one time and you don't end up trying to work on it once someone has moved in.
 
growler said:
That may work but for over all cost and effeciency it's not a good method. The house looks empty but it probably won't be forever. The most effecient way to work is to do everything at once. That way all the holes are repaired at once, it's all painted at one time, it's all inspected at one time and you don't end up trying to work on it once someone has moved in.
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It does have it's goods and it's bads, I never did look at the pics so I don't really know what the scope of work is and since I don't patch or paint, I'm only worried about my scope of work.
 
I think I could bid this whole job

Remember - dont get over loaded here

break it down room by room
break it down item by item
break it down
break it down

my wirte up might be 3 pages on this job


start writing your scope on the things you DO know to bid and then you can always leave yourself some room by adding wording like - all re-wiring and re feeding of existing to be done T amd M

or go ahead and allow yourself some time ($) built into the estimate for EACH re-wiring task or allow your self 2 days (or ?) to do the re-wiring


I wouldl make much more money by bidding this than T and M

If you and I both did this exact job - you would be cheaper than me in the end but how many people want to take the chance?

people are NEVER really happy with T amd M - they alway focus on something like the electrician took a 1/2 hour dump


best of luck with it

jim
 
360Youth said:
Good luck on that one. We've actually had to do that not to exceed thing before. It works under the right circumstances, but not much, and there has only been a handful that just absolutely had to have it. Even if you go 2-3x what it should take, it is amazing how happy they will be just to have a number. :roll:
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Let's think about that now. If we think about what it would take for us to give an hourly rate, and how long it should take, and find that if we can give a quoted price based on 2-3x what our price would have been hourly, shouldn't we just quote a price based on 2-3x what we think we would do it hourly and raise our stanard of living? Almost sounds like what some of the members have been saying.

Really it is just increased by increasing our hourly rate. Take each task and assign time to it, make your rate what it should be to actually make the money you want to make. It's all salesmanship. If you make the price a big issue, it will be a big issue. It you tell them the price and move on to scheduling the job, the price becomes just the price, not a big issue, and they will pay it as such.
 
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bradleyelectric said:
Let's think about that now. If we think about what it would take for us to give an hourly rate, and how long it should take, and find that if we can give a quoted price based on 2-3x what our price would have been hourly, shouldn't we just quote a price based on 2-3x what we think we would do it hourly and raise our stanard of living? Almost sounds like what some of the members have been saying.

Really it is just increased by increasing our hourly rate. Take each task and assign time to it, make your rate what it should be to actually make the money you want to make. It's all salesmanship. If you make the price a big issue, it will be a big issue. It you tell them the price and move on to scheduling the job, the price becomes just the price, not a big issue, and they will pay it as such.
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Once you give someone a not to exceed price, you are giving them a ouote price and loosing every benifit of a contract price, everything is in the owners favor, why would go into contracting then price an hourly rate, sounds more like a day worker, there are jobs that pay more and have benifits, just make no sense.
 
satcom said:
Once you give someone a not to exceed price, you are giving them a ouote price and loosing every benifit of a contract price, everything is in the owners favor, why would go into contracting then price an hourly rate, sounds more like a day worker, there are jobs that pay more and have benifits, just make no sense.
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I am certainly no advocate of the not to exceed pricing, but every once in a while you just run into those customers. Bid high and be the hero when you charge them less in the end. Either way, it is not a comforatble practice.
 
360Youth said:
I am certainly no advocate of the not to exceed pricing, but every once in a while you just run into those customers. Bid high and be the hero when you charge them less in the end. Either way, it is not a comforatble practice.
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From many years of contracting I can assure you bidding high, and then you charge them less in the end, has the customer thinking, there is something wrong, never lower a price once you give then one, you loose any and all trust at that point, they are not looking at you as a hero, but more like a con artist.

He lowered his price, I wonder why, did he use cheap materials, did he do all the work right.
 
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