Estimating Tips

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frizbeedog

frizbeedog

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Oregon
Since I had begun estimating about a year ago I have bidding for service upgrades and remodels almost exclusively.

Boss hands me a set of plans for a multifamily dwelling. Row houses, 5 units, 2 units identical, and three 3 identical. Open bid (on the street) and a deadline of course.


Advice on working from plans and drawings or keys of things to watch out for?

Key code articles?

Tips for speed and efficiency for these types of projects?


Any advice to get me rolling in the right direction woul be appreciated. Like to do well on this one.
 
A couple things off the top of my head about rowhouses...
The party wall: The party wall often have a fire rating that can be one or several hours. Keep this in mind when selecting boxes for this wall, and keep in mind that boxes on opposite sides of that wall (if a studded wall) have to be separated by 24". If the party wall is masonry, the builders sometimes favor lathing them with 3/4" lath, which may require you to break holes in the masonry for the boxes, use special cable hardware (stacker sifs-1), and so fourth.

The services: If these homes are to have separate ownership, keep in mind that you don't' want to cross property lines with the service conductors and you don't really want to subfeed the units through the attics of adjoining units if you can help it.

Those are the two biggies that come to mind right off for multi-unit. Other than that, they're like any other house. Just do everything as close to the same in each one as you can to make good time. It's not often that you can do all 5 or 6 of them at the same time, but if you can, that's even better for the time factor.

You should also be aware that the IRC no longer applies to buildings with more than 2 units. You'd be under the IBC now. Sometimes they play games with masonry fire walls to call them "seperate buildings that touch". Might not make a difference to you anyhow.
 
Note to pick on you, Marc...but :smile:...

mdshunk said:
... boxes on opposite sides of that wall (if a studded wall) have to be separated by 24".
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Won't the hilti pads allow closer quarters?

We ran into this scenario heavily with back-to-back kitchens and the hilti pads were a viable solution.


mdshunk said:
The services: If these homes are to have separate ownership, keep in mind that you don't' want to cross property lines with the service conductors and you don't really want to subfeed the units through the attics of adjoining units if you can help it.
Click to expand...

Unless there is local rulings to forbid it...why?
The shortest distance bewtween two points ..blah blah blah....copper is very expesnive to be mapping and squaring off.



::stepping out now...I'll deal with the backlash later :grin:
 
celtic said:
Note to pick on you, Marc...but :smile:...



Won't the hilti pads allow closer quarters?
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Of course they will, but they're not free, and this is an estimating thread. With new residential construction margins being so tight, things like putty pads can really blindside the budget. I am aware of guys doing this sort of work 'at cost' right now to keep guys on the payroll.


celtic said:
Unless there is local rulings to forbid it...why?
The shortest distance bewtween two points ..blah blah blah....copper is very expesnive to be mapping and squaring off.
Click to expand...
Ever hear of an easement, or lack thereof? I was just throwing some things out to consider that might throw a wrench into the works in case these units are to have separate ownership in the end. Feel free to add whatever other 'heads up' things you want to into the mix that might apply specifically to multi-unit construction.
 
Advice on working from plans and drawings
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Guess high.



Key code articles?
Click to expand...


The last multi family stuff I did here reqired that any wiring from one unit that passed thru another had to be in conduit.

Local code, NEC or just common sense....I don't know which.
 
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frizbeedog said:
.
Tips for speed and efficiency for these types of projects?.
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Speed and efficeincy tip. (this is actually more for doing 30+ units than a simple 5 units but it still probably would work here as well) Make a dumb down version of the floor plan for each of the two types of units. Eliminate any clutter on the drawing such as dimension lines, non electrical building notes, etc. Starting from there, draw in circuit routing diagrams as follows, Yellow line with 2 ink slashes means 12 from box a to box b. Orange line from panel to appliance with the appropriate ink pen slashes fro circuits using #10 romex. Use blue ink lines for 14-2 and 14-3 cable runs. Another set of floorplans with no cables and also with no outside of electrical trade info to clutter it up. Show all individual device and fixture boxes with a number in a circle next to each. The number is the number of cables you need to have in that box or it is not right and go back to diagram number 1. Now hire untrained dirt cheap labor. Show them how to drill holes and staple cables, and nail up boxes. Let em loose on the project, with those diagrams. Go golfing and then come back and do the cut in/ box makeup yourself or have a good j-man do it. Everybody gets to laugh at this, but I actually used to make a hell of a good profit on tracs using this exact method. Some of the newer refined methods outlined by my friend from California that is a true trac wizard, are to employ the use of Cheeta products, pay the workers piece work for number of outlets. Buy fixtures , wirenuts, gfi's, devices, from online wholesalers in bulk like Sunstar Lighting. Granted most of the methods in my post make most of us here cringe, but this is row housing we are talking about so all is fair in trac wiring. Good Luck.
 
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If there are roof top/back yard condensors...don't forget the GFCI outlet comes from the house panel.
 
macmikeman said:
Speed and efficeincy tip. (this is actually more for doing 30+ units than a simple 5 units but it still probably would work here as well) Make a dumb down version of the floor plan for each of the two types of units.
Click to expand...

Even with five units the dumb down drawing would certainly help. I Like to eliminate clutter.
Thanx for the tip :smile:

Another Tip: Hit the ground running.

Actually found out all 5 are the same. Even better. :grin:
 
frizbeedog said:
Article....?
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There's not one. I think this might be how it's been enforced for Celtic, but as long as each unit has a receptacle by the condensing unit, it can come from the unit's panel. There's no reason for a 5 unit rowhouse to even have a house panel unless you have something special going on.
 
mdshunk said:
There's not one. I think this might be how it's been enforced for Celtic, but as long as each unit has a receptacle by the condensing unit, it can come from the unit's panel. There's no reason for a 5 unit rowhouse to even have a house panel unless you have something special going on.
Click to expand...

Thanx Marc. Could'nt think of one myself.
 
celtic said:
If there are roof top/back yard condensors...don't forget the GFCI outlet comes from the house panel.
Click to expand...

frizbeedog said:
Article....?
Click to expand...

Besides the first statement, I've seen the same statement made for other applications here on the forum. IE they were required to orginate from the main service only, care to list them. Is this just an AHJ thing ?

Or are you saying that each GFCI is from each individual's (tenant) service and not from the owners panel.

Sorry I miss read that
OK, its comes from the house panel, So why? The power for the outdoor units are not on house service, why not just
run a circuit out there?
 
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cadpoint said:
The power for the outdoor units are not on house service, why not just
run a circuit out there?
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I'm thinking with the requirement for receptacle front and back it won't be an issue.
 
celtic said:
If there are roof top/back yard condensors...don't forget the GFCI outlet comes from the house panel.
frizbeedog said:
Article....?
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
210.25 Common Area Branch Circuits.
Branch circuits in dwelling units shall supply only loads within that dwelling
unit or loads associated only with that dwelling unit.
Branch circuits required for the purpose of lighting, central alarm, signal, communications, or other needs for public or common areas of a two-family or multifamily dwelling shall not be supplied from equipment that supplies an individual dwelling unit.

Not only does 210.25 prohibit branch circuits from feeding more than one dwelling unit, it also prohibits the sharing of systems, equipment, or common lighting if that equipment is fed from any of the dwelling units. The systems, equipment, or lighting for public or common areas is required to be supplied from a separate “house load” panelboard. This requirement permits access to the branch-circuit disconnecting means without the need to enter the space of any tenants. The requirement also prevents a tenant from turning off important circuits that may affect other tenants.
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Black is NEC...Blue is NECH commentary

ETA:
The house panel would be needed for any common area lighting as well....ie, a common entry area.
 
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frizbeedog said:
Individual ownership.

But if it had been other....?
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I was just wondering, mainly. I have some similar to what you describe just down the road from my house that are in process. Was supposed to be 4 groups of 6. We got one group completely done. Got the underground/underslab done for another batch of 6. This was a year ago. Project got put on hold. In my case, each unit has a garage out back, and the services came in off an alley. Meter on the garage, panel in the garage, and each townhouse was subfed underground from its respective garage.
 
celtic said:
Black is NEC...Blue is NECH commentary
[/COLOR]
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Yeah, but the outdoor receptacle by each condensing unit isn't for the benefit of anyone but the respective tennant. If there were only one receptacle for all, that would be a different story.
 
mdshunk said:
Yeah, but the outdoor receptacle by each condensing unit isn't for the benefit of anyone but the respective tennant. If there were only one receptacle for all, that would be a different story.
Click to expand...
IF there is to be a house panel, I would definitely go with 1 GFCI to serve ALL the condensers from the house panel.

ETA:
Is there a basement area?
 
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