Euro baking oven 240v single phase?

[baker919]

Hi Everyone.

Not sure if this is the proper place to post. If not, please let me know will move/delete. Thank you.

Preface: I am hiring an electrician, just want to be get knowledge about equipment and ensure things are proper.

I ordered a used baking oven from Europe, from a company in Europe, thinking 240v single phase is 240v single phase here in the USA. The oven was converted by manufacturer from 3 phase. A person from the company advised that oven neutral is only expecting neutral. I asked if neutral can be supplied with H2, awaiting to hear back. A few folks from my baking community who have similar Euro ovens and another forum suggest that it "may" be possible to connect H2 to oven neutral.

Things that I have read that suggest it may be possible:

1. If transformer is present, and configured a certain way, can accept split phase
2. ground and neutral do not share lines and isolated from each other
3. oven is resistive load, main concern is if smaller controls/fans/lights rely on neutral. since transformer is present, thats good sign?


Here are pictures of the insides:

https://imgur.com/a/main

Are there any clues that suggest H2 can be fed to Blue?

Main control area:

black and blue are fed into 0 and 240 of transformer (AI says this may indicate power can be supplied to Neutral)

Believe these are 4 main breakers, each breaker daisy chained by Live brown.

Photo of prior picture from above view

Neutral and ground isolated? Where 'whip' gets installed?

Live. Where black from 'whip' gets installed?

 

[roger]

Please try diychatroom.com

 

[roger]

After discussing this with others, since the OP says he is a hiring an electrician to perform the work we are reopening the thread.

 

[baker919]

Nameplate of Deck 1 (of 2), the original says 415v 3n 50hz.

 

[qcroanoke]

I would believe the person that told you it's looking for 240 phase to neutral until someone more knowledgeable told me differently.
I've worked with a lot of 240 volt 50 hz stuff and most of it didn't care.
Worked 240 phase to phase or 240 phase to neutral.
But if it was 3 phase stuff it often needed a neutral. YMMV

 

[baker919]

After discussing this with others, since the OP says he is a hiring an electrician to perform the work we are reopening the thread.

Thank you Roger!

 

[jim dungar]

When talking about only 2 wires (ignoring the grounding conductor), it is easy to get confused by the term 'neutral'.

According to the OP, the manufacturer has modified the device so it needs 240V between its two current carrying conductors.

 

[winnie]

@baker919 you might want to invite your electrician to join this chat. We will not provide you with 'diy' instructions, but you've made it clear that you are working on getting information together to understand things for your electrician.

1) Please confirm that the manufacturer has converted the 415V 3 phase unit to single phase 240V, and that 60Hz is acceptable.

2) Please ask the manufacturer to supply a schematic diagram of the unit.

3) I _suspect_ (but this is just a guess) that all of the essential components of this oven will not care one bit about 240V H-N vs 120/240V H-H split phase, but that some incidental aspects are designed for 240V H-N. For example:

• The transformer in your picture will work just fine H-N or H-H, it just cares about getting 240V. But the breaker feeding that transformer might be a single pole that doesn't open one supply wire.
• Heating elements similarly don't care about H-N or H-H, but the layout of the contactors or breakers feeding those heating elements can be different.

4) With the schematic, your electrician will be able to determine if changes are needed to work both H-H or H-N.

 

[Besoeker3]

The EURO is 230Vac

 

[tortuga]

Nameplate of Deck 1 (of 2), the original says 415v 3n 50hz.

Hi Everyone.

Not sure if this is the proper place to post. If not, please let me know will move/delete. Thank you.

Preface: I am hiring an electrician, just want to be get knowledge about equipment and ensure things are proper.

I ordered a used baking oven from Europe, from a company in Europe, thinking 240v single phase is 240v single phase here in the USA. The oven was converted by manufacturer from 3 phase.

The oven shows its designed for 415/240 wye 50HZ, and pulls 4,8KW or 4800 watts, which the closest system here is 416/240 wye 60HZ, which you wont find in a bakery here, unless your bakery is inside a datacenter.
Apparently the manufacturer is telling you the oven does not use 416V internally, thats good, then all the elements are Line to neutral,

On a US 416/240 60 hz system the 4.8kW (total load) would amount to about 6.67 amp on each of three lines to neutral.
To use it here in the US on 240V single phase (L1, L2 + equipment ground ) all 3 brown oven wires are connected to Line 1 and the one blue is connected to Line 2;
However you wont have the advantage of the 3 phases being 120° apart, so the neutral (blue wire) is now 'common' to three 240V loads, and will need to be sized for the total load on all 3 brown wires or 20A, (4800W/240V = 20A)
So converting to single phase means the blue wire must be capable of carrying 20A, personally I'd want to see a something larger than 20A like a 6mm² (10AWG) wire for the blue 'Neutral'.

A person from the company advised that oven neutral is only expecting neutral. I asked if neutral can be supplied with H2, awaiting to hear back. A few folks from my baking community who have similar Euro ovens and another forum suggest that it "may" be possible to connect H2 to oven neutral.

Things that I have read that suggest it may be possible:

1. If transformer is present, and configured a certain way, can accept split phase
2. ground and neutral do not share lines and isolated from each other

Nothing to worry about there, Ground and neutral sharing or being a Common wire is called TN-C, TN-C is illegal in Europe for branch circuits and feeders, here electricians most often encounter a TN-C branch circuit on a old existing residential ovens that have the 3-wire plug which would be illegal over there.
All equipment in Europe supports TN-S where neutral (blue wire) and 'protective conductor' or 'equipment ground' are Separate wires , TN-S is also the standard here.

-> Europe has other grounding (earthing) schemes besides TN-S, Like TT and IT, so nothing in the oven should expect the blue wire to really be at 0 volts to ground.

3. oven is resistive load, main concern is if smaller controls/fans/lights rely on neutral. since transformer is present,

That control transformer is for either 230V or 240V incoming power, when the UK was part of the EU they all standardized on 230V, however the UK in practice never implemented it, they effectivly are still at 240V, so that control transfromer is set to 230V if the oven is sold in mainland Europe and 240v if shipped to the UK or Australia (or here).

Neutral and ground isolated?

Always

 

[suemarkp]

What state are you in, and is this a bakery business or a home bakery? Many states require electrical equipment to be NRTL (National Recognized Testing Lab) listed, such as UL, ETL, or a host of others. In a home this isn't enforced. In a business, state inspectors may check for electrical equipment listing and make you replace unlisted equipment. Here is a list of the current NRTLs recognized at the federal level (OSHA): https://www.osha.gov/nationally-recognized-testing-laboratory-program/current-list-of-nrtls

The CE mark on that oven is not a listing. Some foreign NRTLs like TUV list things to different standards. If it happens to have a TUV label, it needs a US next to the mark to indicate it was listed to US requirements. A european oven is most likely not going to be listed to US standards. That doesn't mean it is unsafe or won't work, it is just a paperwork thing and a POSSIBLE safety issue.

Here in WA, you can have a Field Evaluation Body certify that something is electrically safe. The approved field evaluation bodies are listed in the Washington Administrative Code and valid companies come and go over time. Your state may be different or similar. You need to decide if the risks are worth it if you buy this oven, modify it, get it to work, and then some state inspector comes and makes you disconnect it.

 

[Besoeker3]

The oven shows its designed for 415/240 wye 50HZ, and pulls 4,8KW or 4800 watts, which the closest system here is 416/240 wye 60HZ, which you wont find in a bakery here, unless your bakery is inside a datacenter.
Apparently the manufacturer is telling you the oven does not use 416V internally, thats good, then all the elements are Line to neutral,

On a US 416/240 60 hz system the 4.8kW (total load) would amount to about 6.67 amp on each of three lines to neutral.
To use it here in the US on 240V single phase (L1, L2 + equipment ground ) all 3 brown oven wires are connected to Line 1 and the one blue is connected to Line 2;
However you wont have the advantage of the 3 phases being 120° apart, so the neutral (blue wire) is now 'common' to three 240V loads, and will need to be sized for the total load on all 3 brown wires or 20A, (4800W/240V = 20A)
So converting to single phase means the blue wire must be capable of carrying 20A, personally I'd want to see a something larger than 20A like a 6mm² (10AWG) wire for the blue 'Neutral'.


Nothing to worry about there, Ground and neutral sharing or being a Common wire is called TN-C, TN-C is illegal in Europe for branch circuits and feeders, here electricians most often encounter a TN-C branch circuit on a old existing residential ovens that have the 3-wire plug which would be illegal over there.
All equipment in Europe supports TN-S where neutral (blue wire) and 'protective conductor' or 'equipment ground' are Separate wires , TN-S is also the standard here.

-> Europe has other grounding (earthing) schemes besides TN-S, Like TT and IT, so nothing in the oven should expect the blue wire to really be at 0 volts to ground.

That control transformer is for either 230V or 240V incoming power, when the UK was part of the EU they all standardized on 230V, however the UK in practice never implemented it, they effectivly are still at 240V, so that control transfromer is set to 230V if the oven is sold in mainland Europe and 240v if shipped to the UK or Australia (or here).

Always

Both the UK and EU technically use a harmonized 230V, 50Hz supply. In practice, the UK often runs closer to 240V, while many mainland European nations operate closer to 220V. Because both regions operate within a wide tolerance range (


), appliances are designed to work across both without issue.

 

[tortuga]

What state are you in, and is this a bakery business or a home bakery? Many states require electrical equipment to be NRTL (National Recognized Testing Lab) listed, such as UL, ETL, or a host of others. In a home this isn't enforced. In a business, state inspectors may check for electrical equipment listing and make you replace unlisted equipment. Here is a list of the current NRTLs recognized at the federal level (OSHA): https://www.osha.gov/nationally-recognized-testing-laboratory-program/current-list-of-nrtls

The CE mark on that oven is not a listing. Some foreign NRTLs like TUV list things to different standards. If it happens to have a TUV label, it needs a US next to the mark to indicate it was listed to US requirements. A european oven is most likely not going to be listed to US standards. That doesn't mean it is unsafe or won't work, it is just a paperwork thing and a POSSIBLE safety issue.

Here in WA, you can have a Field Evaluation Body certify that something is electrically safe. The approved field evaluation bodies are listed in the Washington Administrative Code and valid companies come and go over time. Your state may be different or similar. You need to decide if the risks are worth it if you buy this oven, modify it, get it to work, and then some state inspector comes and makes you disconnect it.

Good points, and even if it originally had a valid TUV / CSA-US or other acceptable label it would need a new label for the single phase conversion that has been supposedly completed by the manufacturer.
The three phase to single phase reconfiguration is the most important aspect as that can affect the internal appliance wire sizes.
The blue is now common to three heating elements, so should probably be 4mm² or 6mm² (10AWG) and possibly other internal components need a higher amp rating.