EV charger run neutral or not dilemma

[Sierrasparky]

Hi,
I have a question regarding using a neutral wire or not. My customer does not have a adapter for his EV that is 30 amp no neutral. Nema 6-30.
I was wondering if I can use a 50 amp NEMA 6-50 and place on a circuit run with #6 but using only a 30 amp breaker. The wire is upsized because the customer requested for to future proof.

So can I place a 50 amp receptacle on a circuit which wire ampacity is 60 but the breaker is only 30.

Thanks.

 

[LarryFine]

That's two questions.

In my opinion, a receptacle should have all terminals connected as expected, especially the neutral (and EGC).

I know you can't use a lesser receptacle, but I think you also need the circuit to be able to supply its rating.

 

[wwhitney]

For an individual branch circuit (only one outlet), the receptacle just has to be rated at the circuit (breaker) rating or higher. So no problem with a 6-50 receptacle on a dedicated 30 amp circuit. 210.21(B)(1).

Cheers, Wayne

 

[retirede]

Most EVSEs are either equipped with a 14-50P or a choice between a 14-50 and a 6-50. Not many 6-50 only.

The most flexible “future-proof” installation would be a 14-50R on a 50A circuit. I can’t really tell by your description of the customer’s current equipment if that would work now?

 

[ramsy]

The most flexible “future-proof” installation would be a 14-50R on a 50A circuit.

It seems electric-clothes dryer instructions don't allow the 30A appliance to run on 50A fuses.

If 30A clothes dryer appliance & 50A charger must use the same outlet, a 50A breaker/branch circuit only works if another plug box is used with fuse block for the 30A dryer plug.

See integrated 24 Amp circuit breaker built-in to the transfer switch below.

Amazon.com

 

[LarryFine]

So it supplies what should be an isolated neutral from the dryer receptacle's bonded neutral? Is that Kosher?

 

[Sierrasparky]

That's two questions.

In my opinion, a receptacle should have all terminals connected as expected, especially the neutral (and EGC).

I know you can't use a lesser receptacle, but I think you also need the circuit to be able to supply its rating.

This is a new circuit run in conduit. The run is over 100' with obstacles. So I ran 1/2 with the intention of running 2 #6 and use the conduit as ground to save a few dollars. The customer wanted to future proof with 60 amp wire if down the road has a service upgrade as he is close as he has electric heat.

 

[ramsy]

So it supplies what should be an isolated neutral from the dryer receptacle's bonded neutral? Is that Kosher?

View attachment 2559441

Ideally NEMA 14-30R outlets are available for 4-wire dryer circuits, so separate neutral and grounds can be properly connected.

For those existing 3-wire dryer circuits missing separate grounding, that Split-Volt 14-50R would be missing a nuetral.

The fact that Tesla doesn't use that white neutral for level two chargers doesn't help it pass inspection. Tesla defers to the AHJ's for the Building Wiring and outlets.

 

[petersonra]

IMO, if you use a receptacle that has a neutral in it, you should run a neutral to it. I am not sure it is specifically code required.

Here is a wiring diagram from leviton for their 14-30R receptacle. It clearly shows a neutral wire being run.

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The written instructions say to connect the neutral wire as well.


Since this is a listed product, you have to follow the instructions.

As an aside, I have occasionally wondered why you only have to follow the instructions on listed products.

 

[Sierrasparky]

No Neutral required for a 6-30 receptacle.
2 hots and a ground!

 

[ramsy]

Since this is a listed product, you have to follow the instructions.

Neutral also required with listed NEMA 14-50R outlets, and our AHJ's enforce that, even when 14-50 is used per car charger instructions.

 

[Sierrasparky]

I can understand a little the use of the dryer outlet if one is present. However using the Range outlet. Oh that is a great idea. Trip hazard, CO hazard if a non-EV is running in the garage. I can see it now. Customers drilling hole through wall, passing a rubber cord duct tape to the range terminals......
Yet Telsa only has a 6-50 adapter no 30amp other than the range or Dryer.

 

[Sierrasparky]

Neutral is also required with listed NEMA 14-50R, and our AHJ's enforce that even when used per car charger instructions.

Not using a 14-50 or 14-30. no neutral for a 6-30 or a 6-50... Hence the thread.

 

[ramsy]

Maybe that Split-Volt transfer switch can be special ordered with a Nema 6-50, rather than 14-50

 

[Sierrasparky]

Maybe that Split-Volt transfer switch can be special ordered with a Nema 6-50, rather than 14-50

Why would I do that, This is a new circuit. This is in a underground parking garage. The conduit has been run (over 100'). Not looking to rig anything.

 

[ramsy]

Why would I do that, This is a new circuit. This is in a underground parking garage. The conduit has been run (over 100'). Not looking to rig anything.

So slumlord can run his laundry and car chargers at the same time.

 

[petersonra]

So slumlord can run his laundry and car chargers at the same time.

Not many slumlords have an underground parking garage with power for EVs.

 

[retirede]

It seems electric-clothes dryer instructions don't allow the 30A appliance to run on 50A fuses.

If 30A clothes dryer appliance & 50A charger must use the same outlet, a 50A breaker/branch circuit only works if another plug box is used with fuse block for the 30A dryer plug.

See integrated 24 Amp circuit breaker built-in to the transfer switch below.

Amazon.com

I wasn’t aware a dryer was part of the scenario. It wasn’t mentioned in the OP.

 

[curt swartz]

I'm a little confused about what you are doing. You want to install a 30 amp breaker feeding a 50 amp receptacle? That is fine but if you are connecting an EV charger with a 50 amp plug it is going to be drawing more than 30 amps.

The standard male plug on EV chargers having a neutral prong (14) is plan stupid and must be sponsored by the copper industry. There is never any connection to the neutral for charging.

I was surprised recently when a neighbor asked me to install a receptacle for their new car. Tesla recommended and sold them a 6-50 adapter for a new circuit.

 

[Sierrasparky]

I'm a little confused about what you are doing. You want to install a 30 amp breaker feeding a 50 amp receptacle? That is fine but if you are connecting an EV charger with a 50 amp plug it is going to be drawing more than 30 amps.

The standard male plug on EV chargers having a neutral prong (14) is plan stupid and must be sponsored by the copper industry. There is never any connection to the neutral for charging.

I was surprised recently when a neighbor asked me to install a receptacle for their new car. Tesla recommended and sold them a 6-50 adapter for a new circuit.

Yes that is the concern. I originally sold the customer on a 6-30 receptacle , then they wanted to have the wire upgraded to plan for the future in case they had a service upgrade as a 50 would be marginal depending on which method you use as a load Cal ( using Mike Holt spreadsheet)
Then the customer says that Telsa does not sell a 6-30 adapter. However a aftermarket does.
Now the plan is to use #8 for the future pull the wasted neutral and charge for it. Install a 14-30 receptacle. How frikin stupid can Tesla and the rest be. This is gonna cost a about 100 bucks for a wire that should not need to be there.