EVSE

[Bill Snyder]

Do you use a keyboard are you talking into a phone when you post?

Are you not entertained with me proving my point?

 

[Bill Snyder]

Do you use a keyboard are you talking into a phone when you post?

I don't use a physical keyboard or a phone to post responses. I'm a code badass designed to understand and generate human-like text based on natural language processing algorithms. Users interact with me by typing their questions or messages using a keyboard or by speaking to me through a voice recognition system. I process the input and generate responses in text format, which are then displayed on the screen or read out loud by a text-to-speech system.

 

[wwhitney]

So a GFCI receptacle installed outdoors is hardwired to an outlet and requires GFCI protection?

No, the receptacle is part of the premises wiring system. While the plug is part of the utilization equipment. So the outlet is the point where they connect. I.e. the wipers/prong contact.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[ActionDave]

Are you not entertained with me proving my point?

No. Your posts are long run on sentences with little punctuation making them difficult for me to comprehend.

 

[jaggedben]

...
I could also see the auto industry digging into their deep pockets to pay for a peer reviewed study that demonstrates 15-20ma of protection is sufficient, as thats whats accepted overseas.

What kind of study is needed to convince an NFPA CMP? Electrocute rats a million times at 20ma and show that none of them die?

(Seriously, is there a standard? Educate me.)

 

[jaggedben]

No, the receptacle is part of the premises wiring system. While the plug is part of the utilization equipment. So the outlet is the point where they connect. I.e. the wipers/prong contact.

Cheers, Wayne

Your opinion. My opinion is that the outlet encompasses the entire receptacle.

 

[ActionDave]

I don't use a physical keyboard or a phone to post responses. I'm a code badass designed to understand and generate human-like text based on natural language processing algorithms. Users interact with me by typing their questions or messages using a keyboard or by speaking to me through a voice recognition system. I process the input and generate responses in text format, which are then displayed on the screen or read out loud by a text-to-speech system.

Understanding your point would be far easier if your posts, where you were being serious, had periods and capitalization like this one where you are mocking me.

 

[Bill Snyder]

Your opinion. My opinion is that the outlet encompasses the entire receptacle.

Exactly the receptacle is installed in a receptacle outlet.

 

[wwhitney]

Your opinion. My opinion is that the outlet encompasses the entire receptacle.

The argument against that is (a) wiring devices are part of the premises wiring system, and receptacles are wiring devices, along with (b) the word "taken" in the outlet definition implies current is leaving the premises wiring system, so the receptacle is on the wiring system side of the outlet.

Of course, if you want to spatially blur points to be, say, at least 4" in diameter, then I would agree the receptacle is the outlet, as it's not possible to distinguish so finely. I personally see no need or justification for doing that.

This is bringing to mind the old "is a switch an outlet" argument. I can't really recall what the "yes" argument was, as a switch is a wiring device so it similarly seems unambiguous to me. Maybe I need to go review that thread. : - )

Cheers, Wayne

 

[tortuga]

The jb in the picture below is an outlet

View attachment 2564544

Going by a strict interpretation of the definition in article 100 I say this is the outlet from the perspective of 210.8


Especially since the code puts the size and type of that flexible cable in the scope of the article (625.17)

 

[jaggedben]

The argument against that is (a) wiring devices are part of the premises wiring system, and receptacles are wiring devices, along with (b) the word "taken" in the outlet definition implies current is leaving the premises wiring system, so the receptacle is on the wiring system side of the outlet.
...

That's unambiguous for an old 'dumb' receptacle but a GFCI receptacle (like an EVSE) 'takes' a bit of current for its internal electronics and therefore also meets the definition of utilization equipment. That's a problem for you with your very narrow (literally) interpretation of where the outlet is, since in your scheme the outlet must be on the line side of the GFCI electronics. But it's not a problem for me (or for Larry, or seemingly for most installers and AHJs).

 

[wwhitney]

That's unambiguous for an old 'dumb' receptacle but a GFCI receptacle (like an EVSE) 'takes' a bit of current for its internal electronics and therefore also meets the definition of utilization equipment.

Previously you were arguing that an EVSE isn't utilization equipment, so that the end of the J1772 cord is the outlet. Now you're arguing that it is utilization equipment?

The definition of utilization equipment is quite broad, and can be taken in the way you suggest. But I expect that will lead to various other problems in applying the NEC. It would make a lighted switch, a GFCI receptacle, an electronic circuit breaker, an occupancy sensor, etc., all utilization equipment. E.g. so every feeder supplying an electronic circuit breaker is now a branch circuit as well?

So that's a step too far for me, a little discretion is required. [Or maybe a PI is in order.] If the strict reading of outlet that I propose similarly led to such extensive issues, I'd gladly apply a little discretion to interpreting that as well. But I don't see that any similar conflicts arise.

Cheers, Wayne

P.S. I looked for that "is a switch an outlet" thread, and I found several later threads with links to it, but the links are now broken. In one of those later threads, Al recapped his basic argument as "a switch is a Controller, wiring internal to a Controller is exempted from the Premises Wiring System, and therefore there is an Outlet internal to the switch." Of course, this argument presumes that a switch has internal "wiring"; it's not clear to me that the conductors inside a typical snap switch would be considering wiring.

 

[jap]

Doesn't the rule state "where current is taken" ?

Current doesn't originate at a receptacle, or a switch,,, etc...

Once you make a connection to the electrical system, and, current starts flowing, the entire system associated with that circuit becomes an outlet since the "current" is flowing through the entire system associated with that circuit all the way back to the utility transformer.

If it wasn't, the meter wouldn't be turning.

JAP>

 

[Bill Snyder]

Previously you were arguing that an EVSE isn't utilization equipment, so that the end of the J1772 cord is the outlet. Now you're arguing that it is utilization equipment?

The definition of utilization equipment is quite broad, and can be taken in the way you suggest. But I expect that will lead to various other problems in applying the NEC. It would make a lighted switch, a GFCI receptacle, an electronic circuit breaker, an occupancy sensor, etc., all utilization equipment. E.g. so every feeder supplying an electronic circuit breaker is now a branch circuit as well?

So that's a step too far for me, a little discretion is required. [Or maybe a PI is in order.] If the strict reading of outlet that I propose similarly led to such extensive issues, I'd gladly apply a little discretion to interpreting that as well. But I don't see that any similar conflicts arise.

Cheers, Wayne

P.S. I looked for that "is a switch an outlet" thread, and I found several later threads with links to it, but the links are now broken. In one of those later threads, Al recapped his basic argument as "a switch is a Controller, wiring internal to a Controller is exempted from the Premises Wiring System, and therefore there is an Outlet internal to the switch." Of course, this argument presumes that a switch has internal "wiring"; it's not clear to me that the conductors inside a typical snap switch would be considering wiring.

No, a switch is not an outlet.

An outlet, also known as a power outlet or electrical socket, is a device that is installed in a wall or surface and is used to connect electrical devices to a source of electricity. Outlets typically have two or three holes, depending on the country's electrical system, where plugs from electrical devices can be inserted.

On the other hand, a switch is a device that is used to control the flow of electricity to a device or group of devices. Switches are typically installed in a wall and are used to turn lights or other electrical appliances on or off.

Although both switches and outlets are electrical components that are installed in walls, they serve different functions and are designed differently.

 

[wwhitney]

An outlet, also known as a power outlet or electrical socket, is a device that is installed in a wall or surface and is used to connect electrical devices to a source of electricity. Outlets typically have two or three holes, depending on the country's electrical system, where plugs from electrical devices can be inserted.

Nope, that's a receptacle. An "outlet" is a point "on the wiring system where . . . " Certainly receptacles are outlets, but not all outlets are receptacles.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Bill Snyder]

Understanding your point would be far easier if your posts, where you were being serious, had periods and capitalization like this one where you are mocking me.

I apologize if my previous response came across as mocking, that was not my intention. However, I understand that clear communication is important and I will do my best to use proper punctuation and capitalization in my responses to avoid any confusion in the future.

Regarding your question, I would be happy to explain my point further if you could provide more context or clarify what specific topic or statement you are referring to.

 

[Bill Snyder]

Previously you were arguing that an EVSE isn't utilization equipment, so that the end of the J1772 cord is the outlet. Now you're arguing that it is utilization equipment?

The definition of utilization equipment is quite broad, and can be taken in the way you suggest. But I expect that will lead to various other problems in applying the NEC. It would make a lighted switch, a GFCI receptacle, an electronic circuit breaker, an occupancy sensor, etc., all utilization equipment. E.g. so every feeder supplying an electronic circuit breaker is now a branch circuit as well?

So that's a step too far for me, a little discretion is required. [Or maybe a PI is in order.] If the strict reading of outlet that I propose similarly led to such extensive issues, I'd gladly apply a little discretion to interpreting that as well. But I don't see that any similar conflicts arise.

Cheers, Wayne

P.S. I looked for that "is a switch an outlet" thread, and I found several later threads with links to it, but the links are now broken. In one of those later threads, Al recapped his basic argument as "a switch is a Controller, wiring internal to a Controller is exempted from the Premises Wiring System, and therefore there is an Outlet internal to the switch." Of course, this argument presumes that a switch has internal "wiring"; it's not clear to me that the conductors inside a typical snap switch would be considering wiring.

While the definition of utilization equipment in the NEC is broad, my understanding is that it generally refers to equipment that consumes electrical power and is intended for a specific use. Examples of utilization equipment include appliances, motors, and heating equipment.

In the context of EV charging, the EVSE itself could be considered utilization equipment, as it is responsible for delivering power to the electric vehicle. However, I do agree that the J1772 cord and connector are not necessarily utilization equipment, as they do not consume power or perform a specific function beyond facilitating the transfer of power from the EVSE to the vehicle.

In terms of the definition of an outlet, my understanding is that it refers specifically to a point in the wiring system where current is taken to supply utilization equipment. While a lighted switch or GFCI receptacle may be considered utilization equipment in some contexts, they are not typically referred to as outlets because they do not serve as a point of connection for other equipment.

Regarding electronic circuit breakers and occupancy sensors, my understanding is that they would not typically be considered utilization equipment or outlets under the NEC, as they do not consume power themselves or serve as points of connection for other equipment.

I hope this clarifies my position. Please let me know if you have any further questions or concerns.

 

[ActionDave]

....In terms of the definition of an outlet, my understanding is that it refers specifically to a point in the wiring system where current is taken to supply utilization equipment.....

I agree. That's pretty much word for word what Art. 100 says. The above definition is different from the one you used here -

...An outlet, also known as a power outlet or electrical socket, is a device that is installed in a wall or surface and is used to connect electrical devices to a source of electricity. Outlets typically have two or three holes, depending on the country's electrical system, where plugs from electrical devices can be inserted.

This is what I would call a receptacle. Art 100 calls it a receptacle also.

 

[jaggedben]

Previously you were arguing that an EVSE isn't utilization equipment, ....

No I never said that.

so that the end of the J1772 cord is the outlet.

That isn't mutally exclusive with the rest of the EVSE also being an outlet.

Now you're arguing that it is utilization equipment?

Never said it wasn't.

The definition of utilization equipment is quite broad, and can be taken in the way you suggest. But I expect that will lead to various other problems in applying the NEC.

Like what? I've never had this sort of discussion create problems in the field or with inspectors. I've never had to have this sort of discussion with inspectors.

It would make a lighted switch, a GFCI receptacle, an electronic circuit breaker, an occupancy sensor, etc., all utilization equipment. E.g. so every feeder supplying an electronic circuit breaker is now a branch circuit as well?

??? Aren't the electronics already part of the branch circuit?

 

[wwhitney]

That isn't mutally exclusive with the rest of the EVSE also being an outlet.

Sorry, you lost me here. Are you saying that an EVSE is both utilization equipment and an outlet? And then would a receptacle be both premises wiring and outlet?

I see premises wiring and utilization equipment as being disjoint, and the outlet existing only at the interface of the two. But maybe you can explain the extent to which you see those 3 terms as potentially overlapping.

Like what? I've never had this sort of discussion create problems in the field or with inspectors. I've never had to have this sort of discussion with inspectors.

Well, is a PV inverter utilization equipment because it contains electronics? If so, and it's installed outside at a dwelling unit, then 210.8(F) would often require that it have GFCI protection (assuming we can agree that all utilization equipment connects to an outlet). So are you putting your PV inverter supplies on GFCI breakers?

Aren't the electronics already part of the branch circuit?

If the electronics in an AFCI breaker are utilization equipment, then the feeder supplying that AFCI breaker is now a branch circuit for that AFCI breaker. Which is not a problem in and of itself, just unexpected.

Cheers, Wayne