Exhaust fan above indoor hot tub.

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hillbilly said:
Brady Electric said:
"I have hung chandlers above tubs before but you could not reach it from the tub and on a GFCI circuit. Semper Fi.Buddy"

If that chantileer was cord connected and hanging on a chain, cord or cable, it wasn't code compliant. 410.4(D) 2005
steve
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If the chandelier were 8' above the tubs' edge wouldn't it be compliant? He said that the fixture was out of reach.
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infinity said:
If the chandelier were 8' above the tubs' edge wouldn't it be compliant? He said that the fixture was out of reach.
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Define "out of reach". I can touch an 8' ceiling flat-footed. My kid brother can place his palm flat on an 8' ceiling flat-footed. What would be "out of reach" for me isn't for him.

I don't see how a chandelier -- and especially a chandelier -- mounted over a tub can be done in a compliant manner. I've never seen a chandelier rated for a damp or wet location (could exist, I suppose ...), and unless the ceiling is high enough so that all of the chandelier is above 8', this sounds like a 410.4 (D) no-no.
 
3 ft radius from the waters edge and 8 ft above the waters possible point of reaching.This is a no no zone !!!!!To me the waters edge and the point that it can reach is one in the same.
 
let the homeowner or contractor prove to you it is listed for that applicaton, it should fail until you have that info.
 
Just out of curiosity, where is the rule that says you cannot install anything unless it is listed? I know where to find the rule that says, IF it is listed, THEN you must install and use it in accordance with the instructions that came with the listing. But what if it is not listed?

In this example, suppose you ask the HO to prove the item is listed for the wet (or damp or whatever) environment. Suppose the HO says that he built the fan himself, out of used pin ball machine parts? What rule would you use to fail the installation? Is there such a rule in the NEC, or would you have to look into building codes?
 
charlie b said:
Just out of curiosity, where is the rule that says you cannot install anything unless it is listed? I know where to find the rule that says, IF it is listed, THEN you must install and use it in accordance with the instructions that came with the listing. But what if it is not listed?
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410.4 (D) -- "Luminaires (lighting fixtures) located in this zone shall be listed for damp locations"

Not "if they are listed that's okay", or "may be listed" but "shall be listed".
 
charlie b said:
Just out of curiosity, where is the rule that says you cannot install anything unless it is listed? I know where to find the rule that says, IF it is listed, THEN you must install and use it in accordance with the instructions that came with the listing. But what if it is not listed?

In this example, suppose you ask the HO to prove the item is listed for the wet (or damp or whatever) environment. Suppose the HO says that he built the fan himself, out of used pin ball machine parts? What rule would you use to fail the installation? Is there such a rule in the NEC, or would you have to look into building codes?
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MA revises 90.4 to read "the AHJ shall have the responsibility for deciding upon the approval of unlisted or unlabeled equipment"
 
tallgirl said:
Define "out of reach". I can touch an 8' ceiling flat-footed. My kid brother can place his palm flat on an 8' ceiling flat-footed. What would be "out of reach" for me isn't for him.

I don't see how a chandelier -- and especially a chandelier -- mounted over a tub can be done in a compliant manner. I've never seen a chandelier rated for a damp or wet location (could exist, I suppose ...), and unless the ceiling is high enough so that all of the chandelier is above 8', this sounds like a 410.4 (D) no-no.
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Dang you aint kidding about your name are you .
 
infinity said:
hillbilly said:
If the chandelier were 8' above the tubs' edge wouldn't it be compliant? He said that the fixture was out of reach.
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The problem is not the 8' above the bathtub's rim, it's the 3' horizontal from the bathtub's rim that governs the placement of the fixtures that I mentioned. They can't go directly over the bathtub regardless of how high they are, even if they're rated for wet/damp location.
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hillbilly said:
The problem is not the 8' above the bathtub's rim, it's the 3' horizontal from the bathtub's rim that governs the placement of the fixtures that I mentioned. They can't go directly over the bathtub regardless of how high they are, even if they're rated for wet/damp location.
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What code section do you have to back that up? I'd say that any fixture can go over a bathtub if it's out of the tub zone. The tub zone is 3' from the edge and 8' above the rim.
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Jim W in Tampa said:
Dang you aint kidding about your name are you .
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Nope and I'm not kidding about how tall my kid brother is either.

This is the problem with measurements like "out of reach". Out of reach to whom? I've got more than enough male and female relatives who could easily touch an 8' AFF chandelier without trying too hard. It's not a magical height, it's just pretty darned high for a lot of people.
 
infinity said:
hillbilly said:
What code section do you have to back that up? I'd say that any fixture can go over a bathtub if it's out of the tub zone. The tub zone is 3' from the edge and 8' above the rim.
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410.4(D) (2005) Bathtub and Shower Areas. No parts of cord connected luminaries (fixtures) , chain-, cable, or cord suspended luminaries (fixtures), lighting track, pendants, or ceiling-suspended (paddle) fans shall be located within a zone measured 900mm (3 ft.) horizontally AND 2.5m (8 ft.) vertically from the top of the bathtub rim or shower threshhold.

This zone is all encompassing and includes the zone directly over the tub or shower stall.

Lumunaries (lighting fixtures) located in this zone (Those that are allowed...my words) shall be listed for damp locations, or listed for wet locations where subject to shower spray.

The type that I listed can't be directly over the tub or shower, anywhere in the zone.
That's the way that I read and understand it.

steve
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hillbilly said:
410.4(D) (2005) Bathtub and Shower Areas. No parts of cord connected luminaries (fixtures) , chain-, cable, or cord suspended luminaries (fixtures), lighting track, pendants, or ceiling-suspended (paddle) fans shall be located within a zone measured 900mm (3 ft.) horizontally AND 2.5m (8 ft.) vertically from the top of the bathtub rim or shower threshhold.

This zone is all encompassing and includes the zone directly over the tub or shower stall.

Lumunaries (lighting fixtures) located in this zone (Those that are allowed...my words) shall be listed for damp locations, or listed for wet locations where subject to shower spray.

The type that I listed can't be directly over the tub or shower, anywhere in the zone.
That's the way that I read and understand it.

steve
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Right, but what I read the other poster as saying is that once you're more than 8' above the tub rim or shower threshhold, you're outside that zone -- same as if you were more than 3' horizontally from the tub or shower -- and anything goes.

My only comment was about chandeliers and the fact that they hang down, so if you've got an 8' or 9' ceiling, some part of the chandelier is in the zone. Even with a 10' or 12' ceiling, it's possible the rim of the tub has raised the zone to the point that the lowest point of the chandelier is now inside the zone. For the kinds of large tubs Really Rich People put in their bathrooms, (hot tubs as well) and with a chandelier with a 2' drop, you'd need a 14' ceiling more likely than not for it to be code compliant. But once it's high enough, nothing in 410.4 (D) says it can't be done.

The zone is a bounded box -- it doesn't extend indefinitely into outer space ...

(Edited to fix attribution.)
 
tallgirl said:
"Right, but what I read the other poster as saying is that once you're more than 8' above the tub rim or shower threshhold, you're outside that zone -- same as if you were more than 3' horizontally from the tub or shower -- and anything goes".

"The zone is a bounded box -- it doesn't extend indefinitely into outer space ..."

410.4(D) Doesn't say 3 ft. horizontally....OR....8 ft. vertically.

It says 3 ft. horizontally....AND....8 ft. vertically. It has to be both.

You're right, it's like a box. My opinion is that the closest point of the (referenced) fixtures has to be mounted at the upper and outer corner of the box (minimum). You can't disregard one dimension just because you meet the other.

In my opinion...You can hang it as high as you want over 8 ft., but if it's not at least 3 ft. horizontally from the edge, it's not code compliant.
That's what I understand it to say.
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If the zone is a box than if the fixture is above the zone or adjacent to the zone it's not in the zone. Any fixture can go outside of the zone. Be it 3' from the edge or more than 8' above the rim.
 
hillbilly said:
but if it's not at least 3 ft. horizontally from the edge, it's not code compliant.
That's what I understand it to say.
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If the limiting factor is always the 3' horizontal measurement then why list a vertical measurement at all?
 
infinity said:
If the zone is a box than if the fixture is above the zone or adjacent to the zone it's not in the zone. Any fixture can go outside of the zone. Be it 3' from the edge or more than 8' above the rim.
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Yup.

For some older bathrooms this is a real issue. The tub might be half the width of the bathroom, and just about the entire length. Fortunately, most of those bathrooms have ceilings above 12' as they were designed to be naturally cooled before electric fans were even invented.

I took a shower during my last trip to NOLA in a house where the bathroom was restored to turn-of-the-century (20th, not 21st) appearance. The ceilings were 14' high in the bathroom, as well as throughout the rest of the house. The bathroom was probably about 8' by 10', if that large. The light fixture had four tulip-style arms which were turned down, with each arm having a small bulb in the end. It was centered in the room, well within the 3' horizontal measurement from the tub (as was the sink basin, commode, and just about everything else, save the other wall ...) It was an absolutely gorgeous bathroom that's one of the many I cannot afford :(
 
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