In the city that I live and work in there is a city code that supercedes the NEC. My question is there is an existing electrical panel in a clothes closet and inspector wants 3 foot clearance from floor to ceiling. From what I have learned in the classes that I have taken I was under the impression that what was code then is still code today meaning I could swap the panel without changing location. Let me add to this that the house is a ranch on a slab with a very small attic. Any opinions would greatly be appreciated. Thank you very much.
existing panel location?
- Thread starter johnjake
- Start date
- Status
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: existing panel location?
Hard to answer this if you have local codes.
The NEC does not permit overcurrent devices in clothes closets no matter what the clearances are.
This is just my opinion and ultimately it would be up to the inspector to decide.
part of NEC 80.9(C)
Good luck.
[ August 15, 2004, 11:25 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]
Hard to answer this if you have local codes.
The NEC does not permit overcurrent devices in clothes closets no matter what the clearances are.
Now in my opinion if you remove an existing panel that is in the closet you can not replace it with a new one.
This is just my opinion and ultimately it would be up to the inspector to decide.
part of NEC 80.9(C)
Article 80 is not likely adopted in your area but using it as an example in my opinion you are altering or repairing the old panel and the new panel must conform to the current code.
Good luck.
[ August 15, 2004, 11:25 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]
Re: existing panel location?
I agree w/ Bob on the local codes issue. You will need to find out from your local AHJ regarding any local amendments and I agree that clothes closets are out. BUT... as far as the headroom working clearances, article 110.26 (e) has an exception for exsisting dwelling units of 200A or less. And food for thought, making someone move an exsisting service from any point in a house is a costly decision. As an inspector I try to use common sense judgement because that could be me having to spend $3000.00 or more to move a service that is not going to hurt a thing if left in the same location. This is done on a case by case and you should ALWAYS contact the inspector before starting. Then if he wants it moved, the monkey is off your back and any honest electrician can be guilt free when charging the customer. As I get older so does my mother. I don't want her paying for unessesary charges if avoidable. I just think its fair to the customer. Maybe a cost effective fix in your case would be remove the clothes and make it a STORAGE closet. You follow me???!!!!
[ August 15, 2004, 12:05 PM: Message edited by: necbuff ]
I agree w/ Bob on the local codes issue. You will need to find out from your local AHJ regarding any local amendments and I agree that clothes closets are out. BUT... as far as the headroom working clearances, article 110.26 (e) has an exception for exsisting dwelling units of 200A or less. And food for thought, making someone move an exsisting service from any point in a house is a costly decision. As an inspector I try to use common sense judgement because that could be me having to spend $3000.00 or more to move a service that is not going to hurt a thing if left in the same location. This is done on a case by case and you should ALWAYS contact the inspector before starting. Then if he wants it moved, the monkey is off your back and any honest electrician can be guilt free when charging the customer. As I get older so does my mother. I don't want her paying for unessesary charges if avoidable. I just think its fair to the customer. Maybe a cost effective fix in your case would be remove the clothes and make it a STORAGE closet. You follow me???!!!!
[ August 15, 2004, 12:05 PM: Message edited by: necbuff ]
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: existing panel location?
Experience is one of the best teachers
With that being said, I am fairly new to the inspection end of the deal. As a contractor, sometimes it is hard to understand the pressure that a good inspector feels during the 'tough' inspection. Also, if you are a good contractor,doing good work, you may not see as many screwed up jobs as an inspector sees, sometimes a lot in one day
What I try to do in a situation that requires 'delicate' decisions, and there are plenty of them, is use common sense for safety.
Helping the contractor at that point I think is paramount to helping the industry. I am not saying that I have to lay the job out, but some advice is good for both of us and the contractor's customer as well. When done properly, the contractor and the inspector develop a better understanding and the contractor will most likely call the next time before he makes the mistake on the job, as he feels more comfortable with the inspector. Something more inspectors should be aware of (just my opinion)
Also the more you understand the NEC, the more chance that a good resolve can be found, such as Kenny's stating the exception for existing residential panels as far as headroom. Also reworking the closet or removing the clothes.
'When there is a will, there is a way' as my mother used to say.
[ August 15, 2004, 01:50 PM: Message edited by: pierre ]
Experience is one of the best teachers
With that being said, I am fairly new to the inspection end of the deal. As a contractor, sometimes it is hard to understand the pressure that a good inspector feels during the 'tough' inspection. Also, if you are a good contractor,doing good work, you may not see as many screwed up jobs as an inspector sees, sometimes a lot in one day
What I try to do in a situation that requires 'delicate' decisions, and there are plenty of them, is use common sense for safety.
Helping the contractor at that point I think is paramount to helping the industry. I am not saying that I have to lay the job out, but some advice is good for both of us and the contractor's customer as well. When done properly, the contractor and the inspector develop a better understanding and the contractor will most likely call the next time before he makes the mistake on the job, as he feels more comfortable with the inspector. Something more inspectors should be aware of (just my opinion)
Also the more you understand the NEC, the more chance that a good resolve can be found, such as Kenny's stating the exception for existing residential panels as far as headroom. Also reworking the closet or removing the clothes.
'When there is a will, there is a way' as my mother used to say.
[ August 15, 2004, 01:50 PM: Message edited by: pierre ]
Re: existing panel location?
Paul, To my knowledge there is no NEC definition of exsisting. But IMO it would be a dwelling already built and finaled (inspected) at an earlier date. Any work done thereafter would be done on an exsisting structure. As far as the intent of the exception in 110.26, IMO it is to cover just this type of scenerio. Any home built in the even distant past would have had to comply with the current somewhat unchanged clearance code of 110, so you would'nt have this problem. It is the older homes with the tight spots I believe this exception was made for. I would have to research to find just when the exception was inserted. Anyone remember or run across 60A services in the kitchen cabnits? These home owners were not the wealthiest people in town. Sometimes you just have to do the best you can.. Keep in mind that the exception of 110.26 (e) is for headroom only.
[ August 15, 2004, 04:44 PM: Message edited by: necbuff ]
Paul, To my knowledge there is no NEC definition of exsisting. But IMO it would be a dwelling already built and finaled (inspected) at an earlier date. Any work done thereafter would be done on an exsisting structure. As far as the intent of the exception in 110.26, IMO it is to cover just this type of scenerio. Any home built in the even distant past would have had to comply with the current somewhat unchanged clearance code of 110, so you would'nt have this problem. It is the older homes with the tight spots I believe this exception was made for. I would have to research to find just when the exception was inserted. Anyone remember or run across 60A services in the kitchen cabnits? These home owners were not the wealthiest people in town. Sometimes you just have to do the best you can.. Keep in mind that the exception of 110.26 (e) is for headroom only.
[ August 15, 2004, 04:44 PM: Message edited by: necbuff ]
A
a.wayne3@verizon.net
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Re: existing panel location?
NEC BUFF what would you say to a model home CO`D commercial 3 years later sold and changing the CO from comm. to resi. the Ahj tagged the change due to working clearances at the meter base, bushes there.
NEC BUFF what would you say to a model home CO`D commercial 3 years later sold and changing the CO from comm. to resi. the Ahj tagged the change due to working clearances at the meter base, bushes there.
Re: existing panel location?
I would say if the structure is being used as a dwelling at the time of work, then the rule would come in to play. As far as the bushes in front of the meterbase, the exception is for service equipment and panelboards. The meterbase is not service equipment and it sounds like he had problems with clearances other than headroom.
[ August 15, 2004, 11:16 PM: Message edited by: necbuff ]
I would say if the structure is being used as a dwelling at the time of work, then the rule would come in to play. As far as the bushes in front of the meterbase, the exception is for service equipment and panelboards. The meterbase is not service equipment and it sounds like he had problems with clearances other than headroom.
[ August 15, 2004, 11:16 PM: Message edited by: necbuff ]
hurk27
Senior Member
- Location
- Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
Re: existing panel location?
I have had this very problem before, and had to slot the drywall and studs to the outside of the closet into the bedroom to run a 2" conduit from the old panel to the new one. To bring the circuits over to the new panel. It wasn't a job I liked but the inspector was adamant about moving it. I gutted the old panel and used it as a juntion box for the circuit conductors and ran new service conductors on the outside in conduit from the meter to the new location. They had the drywall patched and you wouldnt know it other that the cover on the old panel in the closet.
I have had this very problem before, and had to slot the drywall and studs to the outside of the closet into the bedroom to run a 2" conduit from the old panel to the new one. To bring the circuits over to the new panel. It wasn't a job I liked but the inspector was adamant about moving it. I gutted the old panel and used it as a juntion box for the circuit conductors and ran new service conductors on the outside in conduit from the meter to the new location. They had the drywall patched and you wouldnt know it other that the cover on the old panel in the closet.
sandsnow
Senior Member
- Location
- Southern California
Re: existing panel location?
pierre, your philosophy is admirable. If all inspectors had that attitude, checked there ego at the door, and be mature enough to admit it when they were wrong without getting mad it would be a better place. I hear so many contractors complain that it's not worth contesting a violation. In the long run it's cheaper because if you contest one and win you're forever labeled as a problem child and your inspections never go well in the future.Originally posted by pierre:
Experience is one of the best teachers
With that being said, I am fairly new to the inspection end of the deal. As a contractor, sometimes it is hard to understand the pressure that a good inspector feels during the 'tough' inspection. Also, if you are a good contractor,doing good work, you may not see as many screwed up jobs as an inspector sees, sometimes a lot in one day
What I try to do in a situation that requires 'delicate' decisions, and there are plenty of them, is use common sense for safety.
Helping the contractor at that point I think is paramount to helping the industry. I am not saying that I have to lay the job out, but some advice is good for both of us and the contractor's customer as well. When done properly, the contractor and the inspector develop a better understanding and the contractor will most likely call the next time before he makes the mistake on the job, as he feels more comfortable with the inspector. Something more inspectors should be aware of (just my opinion)
Also the more you understand the NEC, the more chance that a good resolve can be found, such as Kenny's stating the exception for existing residential panels as far as headroom. Also reworking the closet or removing the clothes.
'When there is a will, there is a way' as my mother used to say.
sandsnow
Senior Member
- Location
- Southern California
Re: existing panel location?
i like the idea about storage room, but that won't work in a bedroom.
I agree that if it is existing legally it should be allowed to remain. If you have to replace because of damage, then it could remain. Replacing because of upgading, that could be another story.
I need a little more info. Why are you changing the panel? Is there other work going on in the house? The building code (here) requires that the entire structure be brought up to current code when the remodel is extensive enough(don't have details as I work commercial). If you need more circuits can you add another panel somewhere else?
i like the idea about storage room, but that won't work in a bedroom.
I agree that if it is existing legally it should be allowed to remain. If you have to replace because of damage, then it could remain. Replacing because of upgading, that could be another story.
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