"Expert Electrical Service"; oh really? pics inside

[brantmacga]

If you recognize that tagline, you know who I'm talking about. When I saw their label plastered on the front of the panel, I knew I was in for a treat. I always run into something working behind this particular branch.


I had to go out because the GFCI feeding the pool lights was tripping, but the lights were still coming on. This is a new construction; '08 code cycle, completed last week. Turns out they fed their own circuit into the switch box for the pool lights. When I was out last week hooking everything up, it was not like that.


Anyhow, when I opened the panel I found these gems.

What's the problem? Those are not combination AFCI's, and the three w/ a blue button were recalled at least 3 years ago, if not 4, because many of them failed to trip under arc fault conditions. I have to assume these have been in their stock since the recall, because they were immediately replaced by the supply houses w/ the green button AFCI you see on top in pic 1. They also handed out the forms we needed to send them back to square D and get reimbursed.



And lastly,

Square D homeline loadcenter.

 

[surf more]

wow--wonder what the inside looked like???how did that pass?

why you out there if house just got finfshed????? not warranty work?

 

[StreamlineGT]

those Cutler Hammers could very well be listed for that panel. What do they say on the breaker?

 

[brantmacga]

wow--wonder what the inside looked like???how did that pass?

why you out there if house just got finfshed????? not warranty work?

I did the pool electrical; check 2nd paragraph for why I was called back.

those Cutler Hammers could very well be listed for that panel. What do they say on the breaker?

Square D panelboards are not listed for classified circuit breakers; 110.3(b) requires you to follow the labeling of the panelboard for replacement breakers. if its not on the panelboard label, its not listed for use. Square D says they will void your warranty if you install classified circuit breakers in their panelboard.

 

[surf more]

aahhhhhhhhh----did you see inside thEm panels????

 

[mcclary's electrical]

They won't let mismatch manufacturers fly together

 

[iwire]

Square D panelboards are not listed for classified circuit breakers; 110.3(b) requires you to follow the labeling of the panelboard for replacement breakers. if its not on the panelboard label, its not listed for use.

No panel is 'listed for classified breakers', not one.

But UL still maintains we can use the classified breakers in any panel that the classified breaker is classified for.

Square D says they will void your warranty if you install classified circuit breakers in their panelboard.

I am all but certain that is against the law, much like Ford trying to say the use of non-Ford parts voids the warranty on a vehicle.

 

[iwire]

I found this from 1995

Square D Warns Against Use of Classified Circuit Breakers
Square D Company (Groupe Schneider)

August 30, 1995
TO: Electrical Inspectors
FROM: Jim Pauley, Manager, Industry Standards

SUBJECT: Classified Circuit Breakers

Square D Company recognizes the important electrical safety role played by electrical inspectors. because of this role, we want you to be aware of the possible reduction in the level of public safety from the use of Classified circuit breakers and other types of interchangeable circuit breakers.


Square D opposes the use of Classified circuit breakers and other forms of interchangeable circuit breakers in panels not listed or labeled to accept them. Our position is based on the National Electrical Code (NEC) Section 110-3(b) that requires equipment to be "used or installed in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling," and our concern with public safety.

Enclosed is literature on the topic and photos of actual field failures involving Classified circuit breakers that were installed in Square D panels. As you can see, use of these circuit breakers may result in reduced electrical protection, loss of warranty, and a reduced level of safety. Many of your fellow electrical inspectors regard use of these circuit breakers as a Code violation.

Square D's reputation was built on quality, unsurpassed electrical protection, and a concern for public safety. That reputation, and the safety of our customers, may be threatened by the use of Classified and interchangeable circuit breakers. That's why we have taken a leadership role in the education of the public regarding the possible risks associated with the use of Classified and interchangeable circuit breakers. We encourage you to use the information enclosed to maintain the excellent record of safety we enjoy in U.S. electrical Installations.

Jim Pauley
Manager, Industry Standards

http://www.inspect-ny.com/electric/Classified_Breaker_Warning.htm


I am going to look for more recent info.

 

[brantmacga]

But UL still maintains we can use the classified breakers in any panel that the classified breaker is classified for.

How does that override the NEC?

 

[iwire]

I found this, it is newer and sounds to me like some serious double talk

Warranties Can Be Revoked By The
Manufacturer If A Substitute Product
Is Used and Causes Damage.

Classified Circuit Breaker manufacturers would like you to believe that the
Magnusson-Moss Warranty Act states that the warranty will not be
affected if a Classified Circuit Breaker is installed in another manufacturers
load center.

This Act deals with the warranty of the assembly not being void
when a component is used that does not affect the performance
of the other components of the assembly, and is based on an
evaluation of ordinary consumer products.
For example, a car manufacturer cannot void the warranty of the
car if different spark plugs are used, or if the customer changes
his own oil. But if an unauthorized mechanic replaces a piston of
the wrong size and weight, the manufacturer IS NOT responsible
for any resulting engine failure.
Circuit breakers and load centers are directly integrated and
work TOGETHER to provide a safe electrical system. As such,
the warranty can be impacted with the installation of a Classified
Circuit Breaker.

http://ecatalog.squared.com/pubs/Electrical Distribution/Load Centers/0106BR0502.pdf

My take, if a classified breaker fails and damages the bus I think Square D could refuse to warranty the bus.

But if say the Square D main breaker fails and there happens to be some classified breakers in the panel they still must warranty that main breaker as the use if the classified breaker had nothing to do with the main breaker failure.

 

[iwire]

How does that override the NEC?

That is a darn good question and one that I have never seen UL answer.

Here is how Siemens explains it

Code Compliance
What about the requirements of 110-3(b) of the National Electrical Code? This Code Section requires that products be used in accordance with instructions included in their listing and labeling and the use of Classified circuit breakers does present a dilemma to some inspectors.

The panelboard is marked to indicate the only circuit breakers to be used in the panelboard are the specific Listed circuit breakers with which the panelboards were evaluated and Listed by the panelboard manufacturer. The Classified circuit breakers, on the other hand, also have instructions included in their listing and labeling indicating the specific Listed panelboards for which they have been evaluated for use in. These are not in conflict with each other. Each manufacturer is listing and marking in accordance with the testing they have done. The Classified circuit breaker manufacturer has done testing in addition to the testing done by the panelboard manufacturer.

The final decision on acceptance of Classified circuit breakers, as with any issue, rests with the Authority Having Jurisdiction (AHJ).


http://www2.sea.siemens.com/Product...cuit-Breakers/Classified_Circuit_Breakers.htm

 

[slick 50]

The one thing that I do know is Cutler Hammer has Classified thermal mag, classified GFI, classified branch AFCI and classified combination AFCI's. These are pretty much the only residential breakers that I stock my truck with for installation in Murray, Seimens, SQ D, and GE. It is nice that you dont have to keep a full stock of all different GFI and AFCI breakers because it gets expensive, especially when running back and forth to supply houses for a certain brand. I just buy a case of 15's and a case of 20's. CH classifed is listed for sq D loadcenters. CH even has classified for sq D QO product line

 

[brantmacga]

The final decision on acceptance of Classified circuit breakers, as with any issue, rests with the Authority Having Jurisdiction (AHJ).[/B]

I take that as recognition that an inspector has the authority to fail a job using classified circuit breakers, and that nothing in the NEC supports the use of classified circuit breakers without them being listed on the panelboard label.

 

[iwire]

I take that as recognition that an inspector has the authority to fail a job using classified circuit breakers, and that nothing in the NEC supports the use of classified circuit breakers without them being listed on the panelboard label.

The listing on the breaker itself supports the use of the breaker.

But to each their own, I have used them in the past and I will again.:smile:

 

[brantmacga]

The listing on the breaker itself supports the use of the breaker.

True, but the labeling on the panelboard does not. I think you have to satisfy all labeling/listing requirements in an installation to meet the requirements of 110.3(B); not just some of them.

 

[LarryFine]

CH even has classified for sq D QO product line

I've seen QO and CH breakers installed in the others' panels. :roll: They don't seat right, but they work.

 

[norcal]

I've seen QO and CH breakers installed in the others' panels. :roll: They don't seat right, but they work.

Bus stabs are pretty close, now if the mounting rails were the same you unfortunately would see more of those stunts.

 

[iwire]

True, but the labeling on the panelboard does not. I think you have to satisfy all labeling/listing requirements in an installation to meet the requirements of 110.3(B); not just some of them.

Well I understand what your saying but it is not how it works out.

By your interpretation no classified breakers can be installed in any panel.

Considering UL and the NEC are well aware of there existence and frequent use I have to conclude it is not an NEC violation. :smile:

 

[cschmid]

now this is an interesting topic. I have had the same inspector make me change a classified breaker in a SQ D panel and allowed it in a siemens panel. So when I question him on it he said it had to do with how that particular breaker fit in the panel. he said it does not seat right and has witnessed poor connections that have caused damage.

 

[brantmacga]

By your interpretation no classified breakers can be installed in any panel.

Yes, that is correct.


Even that quote you listed from siemens can't be read any other way.

They gave no supporting evidence that could contradict the NEC, because that is the final authority, at least on my jobs.