Exposed NM

[bensonelectric]

I was at a resturaunt a few weeks back that had been reciently remodeled, and was a few days out from opening, and had just been rewired. Most of everything looked fine except for a single NM cable at main counter that had been run down a metal drain pipe from the celing to a receptacle beneath the counter for the cash register ect. The NM cable was zip tied to the pipe its entire length. It was installed by a licensed electrician. A few days prior it had passed the electrical inspection. I believe this is in violation of (per 2002NEC) 334.15(B) but my friend disagrees with me and says it is fine. What is your guys take on it?

 

[iwire]

Re: Exposed NM

334.15(B) Protection from Physical Damage. The cable shall be protected from physical damage where necessary......

"Where necessary" is entirely up to the installers and the inspectors judgment.

It sounds like a raceway would have been better.

 

[bphgravity]

Re: Exposed NM

NM in a restaurant? What kind of ceiling are you refering to?

 

[volt102]

Re: Exposed NM

What about 334.10?

 

[pierre]

Re: Exposed NM

Art 518 Assembly Occupancies
.2(A) Examples.
...Restaurants

this may have to comply with the strict wiring methods of this article, depending on the layout of where this register is in relation to places of assembly.

 

[iwire]

Re: Exposed NM

Originally posted by volt102:
What about 334.10?

What about it?

334.10(A) Type NM. Type NM cable shall be permitted as follows:

(1)For both exposed and concealed work in normally dry locations except as prohibited in 334.10(3).

Don't get me wrong, this installation sounds ugly.

 

[davedottcom]

Re: Exposed NM

Is this pipe exposed or concealed?

Dave

Editted: Sorry, just noticed the thread topic! (Exposed NM)

I can't think of any exception that would allow this NM to be exposed.

[ September 22, 2005, 06:56 AM: Message edited by: davedottcom ]

 

[iwire]

Re: Exposed NM

Originally posted by davedottcom:

I can't think of any exception that would allow this NM to be exposed.

Dave why would NM need an exception to be exposed under the 2002 NEC?

334.10(A) Type NM. Type NM cable shall be permitted as follows:

(1)For both exposed and concealed work in normally dry locations except as prohibited in 334.10(3).

[ September 22, 2005, 07:01 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Exposed NM

Originally posted by bphgravity:
NM in a restaurant?

I remember when a new Wendy's was being built, I snuck in (through the missing door) and looked around. They had romex all over the place. I think it's one of the marks of a low bid - a close attention to the type of building, and using NM whenever humanly possible.

A guy bidding at 50% romex and SE cable for a commercial building will probably be lower than an MC or EMT oriented shop, that didn't think of it or has higher standards.

 

[tshea]

Re: Exposed NM

Originally posted by georgestolz:
A guy bidding at 50% romex and SE cable for a commercial building will probably be lower than an MC or EMT oriented shop, that didn't think of it or has higher standards.

IF the specs don't require "metal" then "plastic" is OK. As for standards...that's truly debateable.

FYI I think zip tied romex is cr@ppy looking, especially exposed!

 

[bensonelectric]

Re: Exposed NM

The drain pipe was coming down from the roof, through a drop-tile celing to an island counter in the main dining room of the resturaunt. The NM (yellow 12-2) was zip tied every 2' or so the entire lenght of the pipe, then disappeared through a small hole cut into the surface of the counter next to the hole for the drain pipe to pass through.

 

[dillon3c]

Re: Exposed NM

Originally posted by bensonelectric:
The drain pipe was coming down from the roof, through a drop-tile celing to an island counter in the main dining room of the resturaunt. The NM (yellow 12-2) was zip tied every 2' or so the entire lenght of the pipe

Matt,
From your first post..-*had been run down a metal drain pipe from the ceiling..

Guess I'm not understanding just where this piece of NM cable is coming from..Surely not from above this lay-in ceiling..

 

[bensonelectric]

Re: Exposed NM

The owner said something about it running to the roof to either pull power from or power something on the roof. It then ran down the drainpipe from the roof, through the drop celing, and to the island front counter, where it ran into a 4sq box with 2 duplex recepticles beneith the counter.

 

[volt102]

Re: Exposed NM

iwire,

334.10(A) Type NM. Type NM cable shall be permitted as follows:

(1)For both exposed and concealed work in normally dry locations except as prohibited in 334.10(3).

334.10(3) Other structures permitted to be of Types III, IV, and V construction except as prohibited in 334.12. Cables shall be concealed within walls, floors, or ceilings that provide a thermal barrier of material that has at least a 15-minute finish rating as identified in listings of fire-rated assemblies.

The cable that bensonelectric is talking about is exposed, for he quoted 334.15.
Also he quoted the 2002 NEC.
Romex can not be installed exposed other then in a residential setting for it is prohibited.

Jim

 

[pierre]

Re: Exposed NM

Jim
"Romex can not be installed exposed other then in a residential setting for it is prohibited."

Where did you find that reference in the NEC?

 

[dillon3c]

Re: Exposed NM

334.10(3)
Other structures permitted to be Types III,IV and V construction except as prohibited in 334.12.Cables shall be concealed within walls,floors or ceilings that provide a thermal barrier of material tha has at least a 15 minute finish rating as identified in listing of fire rated assemblies.

I guess, this is what he's refering too.

 

[butch]

Re: Exposed NM

It is my understanding that nm in residential use must be protected up to 7 feet high. In this situation it seems to be a direct violation with the code.

 

[volt102]

Re: Exposed NM

Yes dillon3c, that is exactly what I am referring to.

334.10(3) Other structures permitted to be of Types III, IV, and V construction except as prohibited in 334.12. Cables shall be concealed within walls, floors, or ceilings that provide a thermal barrier of material that has at least a 15-minute finish rating as identified in listings of fire-rated assemblies.

Concealed. Rendered inaccessible by the structure or finish of the building. Wires in concealed raceways are considered concealed, even though they may become accessible by withdrawing them.

Jim

 

[iwire]

Re: Exposed NM

Jim I still do not agree with your statement that NM must be concealed in any location other than dwelling units.

You can have a commercial occupancy in other than Types III, IV, and V construction.

 

[volt102]

Re: Exposed NM

Type NM, Type NMC, and Type NMS cables shall be permitted to be used in the following:
(1) One- and two-family dwellings.

Permitted exposed and concealed in 1 and 2 families.

(2) Multifamily dwellings permitted to be of Types III, IV, and V construction except as prohibited in 334.12.

Permitted exposed and concealed in multifamily except for the ones that are required to be type I and II

(3) Other structures permitted to be of Types III, IV, and V construction except as prohibited in 334.12. Cables shall be concealed within walls, floors, or ceilings that provide a thermal barrier of material that has at least a 15-minute finish rating as identified in listings of fire-rated assemblies.

In "others" ( as in other then x# dwellings style buildings) the cable must be concealed.

iwire, the statement I made is wrong in the sense that you can have a type I or II style mega apartment complex. These types of structure are not common in my area. Sometimes I forget that I am talking to the whole country at times. But could the statement be reinstated to, romex cannot be installed exposed in other then a residential setting?

Jim