Extending feeders without EGC

[JoeNorm]

Houses in my area have meters on the street, next to the transformer. All recent construction have meter/main combos with the first means of disconnect in this enclosure. It is not uncommon to get upgraded to a meter-main during a remodel but NOT be required to run the EGC. So you have a 200amp disco at the street, 3 wires run into the main panel, and grounds and neutrals remain bonded there. This is a sort of exception I think where they grandfather in the existing service wires and do not require an EGC because it would involve too much destruction.

Thats all fine and understood. My question is what happens when the home owner wants say, an ATS installed in the garage for a generator or ESS? Can I extend and reroute those feeders through the house(with a 4-wire cable) and to the garage, and then back to the main panel? Now the N-G bond has moved to the garage and I'd separate Grounds and neutrals in the main panel. Does this sound reasonable or would extending those feeders not be ok seeing as they had no EGC in the first place? Weird one, I know.

 

[wwhitney]

If the main disconnect is at the meter at the street, then the feeder from there to the house would be subject to Article 225. The existing EGC-less feeder is compliant under 250.32(B)(1) Exception 1 as long as there are no other metallic paths from the meter structure to the house.

The feeder needs a disconnect located in compliance with 225.32, and that is where the house EGC would originate, and the house GES would be connected. So if you are running a feeder further into the house to an ATS, it would be a normal 4 wire feeder downstream of that disconnect.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[JoeNorm]

The feeder currently comes into the house panel and lands on a 200amp breaker, and that is where EGC originates and you say.

The proposal would be to take the feeders out of the breaker, splice on a cable to run to an ESS, bond G-N there, then run another cable back to feed the house panel.

This all seems OK other than the fact that we're working on the 250.32(B)(1) Exception 1 in the first place

 

[wwhitney]

The proposal would be to take the feeders out of the breaker, splice on a cable to run to an ESS, bond G-N there, then run another cable back to feed the house panel.

That's fine if the ESS or ATS or whatever still complies with 225.32 by being "at a readily accessible location nearest the point of entrance of the conductors." Otherwise, you need a separate disconnect "nearest the point of entrance of the conductors."

Cheers, Wayne

 

[JoeNorm]

definitely will be readily accessible but will no longer be at the "nearest point of entrance" since its being rerouted to the location of the ESS.

 

[Eddie702]

If the disconnect at the street is considered the service disconnect anything on the load side is a feeder and can be 3 wire (metal pipe) or 4 wire (pvc pipe).

If you are saying you have a 3 wire service coming into a house and then a service disconnect is added at the street and the pipe is 3 wire in pvc or direct bury I don't know how that flies

 

[JoeNorm]

If the disconnect at the street is considered the service disconnect anything on the load side is a feeder and can be 3 wire (metal pipe) or 4 wire (pvc pipe).

If you are saying you have a 3 wire service coming into a house and then a service disconnect is added at the street and the pipe is 3 wire in pvc or direct bury I don't know how that flies

250.32(B)(1) Exception 1

But that is not what the question is about.

 

[wwhitney]

definitely will be readily accessible but will no longer be at the "nearest point of entrance" since its being rerouted to the location of the ESS.

Then that would be a 225.32 violation. You'll need to add a new 200A disconnect at the point of entrance and move your GECs to it. Then a new feeder with EGC to the ESS and back to your panel.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[jaggedben]

The feeder currently comes into the house panel and lands on a 200amp breaker, and that is where EGC originates and you say.

The proposal would be to take the feeders out of the breaker, splice on a cable to run to an ESS, bond G-N there, then run another cable back to feed the house panel.

Why wouldn't you just leave the N-G bond at the 200A breaker and run an EGC to the ESS* or ATS?

*code term here would actually be Micro-grid Interconnect Device.

 

[JoeNorm]

Why wouldn't you just leave the N-G bond at the 200A breaker and run an EGC to the ESS* or ATS?

*code term here would actually be Micro-grid Interconnect Device.

Because I am extending the feed to the MID(I say the correct terminology now because I know you know what it is) so I thought the G-N should be there since that becomes the first point of disconnect in the house since the feed has been spliced and extended

 

[jaggedben]

Okay, I think I was imagining the 200A breaker in it's own enclosure. But you have a 200A main breaker in a 'main' distribution panel with all the branch circuits, so you want that whole panel to be on the load side of the MID or ATS. Correct?

In my opinion you can't extend the 3-wire feeder. You need to grab the 3-wire somewhere that you can put a 200A piece of equipment with overcurrent protection and an N-G bond. (That could be the MID if the instructions allow, or a 200A breaker enclosure or fused disco.) Any remaining 3-wire running to the exisiting panel on the load side needs to be replaced with 4-wire.

To be honest, there's been one or two situations where I've added a separate EGC that complied more or less with 250.130(C) and 250.120(C). The code doesn't say you can do this for feeders but it seems equally safe in resi and it's certainly better than not bonding the downstream equipment.

 

[JoeNorm]

Okay, I think I was imagining the 200A breaker in it's own enclosure. But you have a 200A main breaker in a 'main' distribution panel with all the branch circuits, so you want that whole panel to be on the load side of the MID or ATS. Correct?

In my opinion you can't extend the 3-wire feeder. You need to grab the 3-wire somewhere that you can put a 200A piece of equipment with overcurrent protection and an N-G bond. (That could be the MID if the instructions allow, or a 200A breaker enclosure or fused disco.) Any remaining 3-wire running to the exisiting panel on the load side needs to be replaced with 4-wire.

To be honest, there's been one or two situations where I've added a separate EGC that complied more or less with 250.130(C) and 250.120(C). The code doesn't say you can do this for feeders but it seems equally safe in resi and it's certainly better than not bonding the downstream equipment.

Correct.

Thanks, this is what I am trying to get to the bottom of seeing as I will likely run into this situation again. I wonder what the code violation would be to extending a 3-wire besides Wayne's idea of it needing a disco right where it enters building.

I suppose also since it's an exception to allow it in the first place.

Does this not come up when people want a whole-home generator?

 

[wwhitney]

Thanks, this is what I am trying to get to the bottom of seeing as I will likely run into this situation again. I wonder what the code violation would be to extending a 3-wire besides Wayne's idea of it needing a disco right where it enters building.

Not my idea, you can see what 225.32 says. [If this is in WA, did they amend 225.32 like they amended the analogous section in 230, to allow 15' of service conductors inside a building?]

So you'll need to add a 200A disconnect next to the existing panel (or if the panel is inside, just on the outside of the wall), move the feeder and GECs over, run the new feeder with EGC to the MID and then back to the existing panel, where grounds and neutrals need separating.

Adding a MID is much harder when the building is supplied by a service and there's a meter/main/distribution all-in-one, as is common in California. The common solution there is to take the distribution breakers out of the all-in-one, connect a full ampacity feeder to that bus (if possible), hit the MID, then hit a new panel with all the distribution breakers. You could do that instead if it's somehow easier.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[JoeNorm]

Not my idea, you can see what 225.32 says. [If this is in WA, did they amend 225.32 like they amended the analogous section in 230, to allow 15' of service conductors inside a building?]

So you'll need to add a 200A disconnect next to the existing panel (or if the panel is inside, just on the outside of the wall), move the feeder and GECs over, run the new feeder with EGC to the MID and then back to the existing panel, where grounds and neutrals need separating.

Adding a MID is much harder when the building is supplied by a service and there's a meter/main/distribution all-in-one, as is common in California. The common solution there is to take the distribution breakers out of the all-in-one, connect a full ampacity feeder to that bus (if possible), hit the MID, then hit a new panel with all the distribution breakers. You could do that instead if it's somehow easier.

Cheers, Wayne

Is the 3-wire feed to the panel from the street considered service entrance or a feeder? Overcurrent has been added but no EGC, so what are they?

 

[wwhitney]

Is the 3-wire feed to the panel from the street considered service entrance or a feeder? Overcurrent has been added but no EGC, so what are they?

Until WA switched to the 2020 NEC, it was unequivocal that since it has OCPD in front of it, it's definitely a feeder. And my previous comments were all based on that interpretation.

But take a look at 230.85, it doesn't specify that the readily accessible outdoor location is on the house. So if that's correct, you could label the meter OCPD as in 230.85(c) and treat the 3 wires to the house as service conductors. That would let you extend the 3 wire supply to make the MID your service disconnect. As long as the extension would still comply with WA's maximum 15' of service conductors inside (which would have to be in one of the conduit types allowed).

I think.

Cheers, Wayne