extension cords for ceiling mounted TV

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rick hart

rick hart

Senior Member
Location
Dallas Texas
I need some feedback from you guys;
There are some TV's , installed hanging from the ceiling with wall mounted receptacle within reach of the factory cord. The problem is that it looks bad.
However, if we ty-wrap the cord to the post and sticky back it to the wall, the cord is about 20" too short.

The question- move the receptacle 20" closer (which blocks access to the receptacle) or make up a short extension cord. I read the code as not using cords to replace building wiring but if the wires are allowed to run directly to the receptacle, there is plenty of the TV cord left.

I really respect the views of the regular responders here and would like your opinions on this.
Thanks
 
Re: extension cords for ceiling mounted TV

I'd be inclined not to worry about the extra 20" of cord. JMHO.

Sometimes you have to realize that the code cannot possibly cover every conceivable installation situation. It is rare, but it does happen. IMO this is one of those cases.

If you used a short extension cord in this case you are not creating an additional hazard, at least none I can see.

Computers come with a cord you can replace with a longer cord if necessary because it has a female plug that plugs into the computer. I don't recall ever seeing a TV made that way though. I have often wondered why. It seems you are always 6 inches or a foot short of the cord it comes with being a convenient length.
 
Re: extension cords for ceiling mounted TV

My inclination is to not worry about it either and make up custom extension cords.

However, I left out these are in patient care rooms. We are talking way out of the patient care vacinity; it is highly unlikely that the patient would come in contact with any of this except for the remote control.
The cords we would make up would have HG caps.
Still, I need something to hang my hat on either way.
 
Re: extension cords for ceiling mounted TV

If the Fire Dept walks through and sees the cord don't expect them to be happy.
400.8 would not allow cords as a substitute for permanent wiring. I would suggest relocating the outlets. Surface Raceway is excellent for this application, and will provide a Code compliant installation.

Charlie
 
Re: extension cords for ceiling mounted TV

In my opinion is that it is a violation of 400.8(1) and if you tie wrap it also a violation of 400.8(4)

400.8 Uses Not Permitted.
Unless specifically permitted in 400.7, flexible cords and cables shall not be used for the following:

(1)As a substitute for the fixed wiring of a structure.

(4)Where attached to building surfaces.
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The only way around it in my opinion is if you can say with a straight face that the TV needs frequent interchange.

400.7 Uses Permitted.
(A) Uses. Flexible cords and cables shall be used only for the following:

(6)Connection of utilization equipment to facilitate frequent interchange
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But the TV came with it's own cord which makes that a weak argument.

What you really want to do is permanently install an extension cord and that IMO, is precisely what the NFPA and most fire department do not want.

Just my entirely biased opinion. ;)

Bob
 
Re: extension cords for ceiling mounted TV

I saw those sections in 400.1 Bob.

The "interchangeability" angle is not something a clown like me can say with a straight face.

400.8(1) I read as a replacement of building wiring which this is not. The building wiring is fine as long as esthetics are not concerned.
Your read on ty wraps on the cords is interesting-where attached to buildings is not permitted. That might be the answer I'm looking for- flexible cords are SUPPOSED to look bad!
Thanks for your thoughts!
 
Re: extension cords for ceiling mounted TV

Surface mounted wiremold extension box, short run of 500 wiremold to outlet box. Locate by TV. Bundle excess cord behind TV. Hospital Maintenance can paint wiremold to match walls.
 
Re: extension cords for ceiling mounted TV

Originally posted by rick hart:
I read as a replacement of building wiring which this is not.
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I do not understand that interpretation.

The section does not say;

"As a replacement for the fixed wiring of a structure"

Which would be bad move in itself.

The section says;

"As a substitute for the fixed wiring of a structure"

Which is exactly what you want to do.

Instead of installing an outlet closer to the TV with a wiring method from chapter 3 you want to substitute it with a flexible cord.

I do have a strong bias against the use of cords when not necessary.

I have found to many that where left in place for years that have become dried out and brittle sometimes to the point the insulation falls of the conductors when the cord is moved.

Thanks for your thoughts!
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No problem! :)

Good luck, Bob
 
Re: extension cords for ceiling mounted TV

Why not move the TV? Why is it up to the electrician to resolve this issue?
An extension cord would be violation.
 
Re: extension cords for ceiling mounted TV

I have a couple thoughts on this. And I am not willing to go digging through the NEC to justify them.

[1] Bob, You're almost saying that the thing should be hard wired.

[2] If extension cords are illegal don't use them.

[3] The idea of tie wrapping (that I mostly agree with Bob on) seems to qualify the whole thing as a permanent installation. But it's really not a permanent installation. Is it.

As stupid as it sounds, I think the issue can be reduced to using something to attatch the cord and extension cord to whatever building components using something that can be broken free by simply pulling on it. Which, at the same time, I think is also less safe. :(
 
Re: extension cords for ceiling mounted TV

[3] The idea of tie wrapping (that I mostly agree with Bob on) seems to qualify the whole thing as a permanent installation. But it's really not a permanent installation. Is it.
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Let me back peddal on this part. It is a permanent installation. But the wiring meathod is not, nor is it required to be.
 
Re: extension cords for ceiling mounted TV

If it is a lay-in ceiling why not use a ceiling mounted recept? The J-box should be pretty close.

If it is a gysum or drywall ceiling, have the owner replace the ceiling mounted TV stand with a wall mounted TV stand that can be located closer to the recept.
 
Re: extension cords for ceiling mounted TV

Basically what my problem is with this is that it's presumably safer to leave electrical cords dangling around than it is to secure them.

Edit: left a word out.

[ February 11, 2005, 03:57 PM: Message edited by: physis ]
 
Re: extension cords for ceiling mounted TV

Originally posted by apauling:
i completely agree with bob on this one.

paul
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That's twice in two days we saw eye to eye....people will start to talk. :D

Originally posted by physis:
[1] Bob, You're almost saying that the thing should be hard wired.
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Yes that is correct I would like TVs to be wired with RMC. ;)

Sam I do not see where I said that at all.

A TV is UL listed equipment with a 6' cord, normally in a dwelling unit it would reach one of the required outlets.

But here we are talking about a non-dwelling unit so we do not have outlets every 12' or less.

It is clear that the TV is staying put or at least there will always be a TV in that location. The location has a TV mount and I imagine some sort of signal connection.

It is also clear to me that the NEC does not want extension cords used to feed permanent installations.

There is no reason not to use a chapter 3 wiring method here, some inexpensive solutions have been presented in this thread.


Originally posted by physis:
[2] If extension cords are illegal don't use them.
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No one said extension cords are illegal only the permanent use of them is a problem. :p


Originally posted by physis:
[[3] The idea of tie wrapping (that I mostly agree with Bob on) seems to qualify the whole thing as a permanent installation. But it's really not a permanent installation. Is it.
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What is not permanent about it?

When do you foresee it being removed?

One week, a month, a year?

We do a lot of work in large retail chains if it was not for the FDs these places would be filled with extension cords.

The basic rule around seems to go like this.

If they set up a display of electronics somewhere unusual for a sale then extension cords are permitted.

But the shelves in the electronic department that will always hold an ever changing selection of products need chapter 3 wiring methods.

JMO, Bob
 
Re: extension cords for ceiling mounted TV

Basically what my problem is with this is that it's presumably safer to leave electrical cords dangling around than it is to secure them.
Click to expand...
I would just plug in the TVs if the cords reach and let the hospital electricians make the violation with the cords.
 
Re: extension cords for ceiling mounted TV

Originally posted by physis:
Basically what my problem is with this is that it's presumably safer to leave electrical cords dangling around than it is to secure them.
Click to expand...
Sam I was typing my previous post while you where putting up this.

Your missing the point (I think) the NEC does not want cords unless absolutely necessary. Allowing cords to be fastened to the building would encourage the use of cords.

You said you did not want to look it up so here it is.

400.7 Uses Permitted.
(A) Uses. Flexible cords and cables shall be used only for the following:

(1)Pendants

(2)Wiring of luminaires (fixtures)

(3)Connection of portable lamps, portable and mobile signs, or appliances

(4)Elevator cables

(5)Wiring of cranes and hoists

(6)Connection of utilization equipment to facilitate frequent interchange

(7)Prevention of the transmission of noise or vibration

(8)Appliances where the fastening means and mechanical connections are specifically designed to permit ready removal for maintenance and repair, and the appliance is intended or identified for flexible cord connection

(9)Data processing cables as permitted by 645.5

(10)Connection of moving parts

(11)Temporary wiring as permitted in 527.4(B) and 527.4(C)

(B) Attachment Plugs. Where used as permitted in 400.7(A)(3), (A)(6), and (A)(8), each flexible cord shall be equipped with an attachment plug and shall be energized from a receptacle outlet.
Exception: As permitted in 368.8.
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400.8 Uses Not Permitted.
Unless specifically permitted in 400.7, flexible cords and cables shall not be used for the following:

(1)As a substitute for the fixed wiring of a structure

(2)Where run through holes in walls, structural ceilings, suspended ceilings, dropped ceilings, or floors

(3)Where run through doorways, windows, or similar openings

(4)Where attached to building surfaces
Exception: Flexible cord and cable shall be permitted to be attached to building surfaces in accordance with the provisions of 368.8.

(5)Where concealed by walls, floors, or ceilings or located above suspended or dropped ceilings

(6)Where installed in raceways, except as otherwise permitted in this Code
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The NEC has few required outlets in non dwelling units.

If the NEC did not stand tough on this cord issue what would prevent me from putting all my permanent outlets right under a panel and running a bunch of cords from there to all my utilization equipment?

I can tell you in many light manufacturing facilities they would love for me to be able to do just that as they often change the line.
 
Re: extension cords for ceiling mounted TV

That's what has me dithering- I know that technically short cords are probably not going to be allowed by code. On the likelihood of turning the building into a raging inferno, the cords won't create any more danger of combustion than the TV itself is likely to. So, the expense of moving 200+ of these receptacles or 200+ TV's seems like a bad choice to spend the time or money. HG ends aren't exactly cheap either.

So, what I'm hearing is either:
1. Leave the receptacles and TV right where they are and let the TV cords dangle because there is presently no violation in doing so.
2. Move the receptacles closer to the TV but do not fasten the cords to anything but themselves (is this part right?) otherwise a violation will occur.
3. Even if we wanted to neaten the appearance by fastening the cords to the mounting hardware, that in itself is a violation.
4. Take the fellas in bed to a movie and forget about Vanna turning the letters.

WHAT A WORLD!!!
 
Re: extension cords for ceiling mounted TV

Originally posted by rick hart:
On the likelihood of turning the building into a raging inferno, the cords won't create any more danger of combustion than the TV itself is likely to.
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I agree, at the same time the code is the code.

Forget the TV and the movies (the popcorn machine is probably on an extension cord :D ) have the bookmobile come by. :D
 
Re: extension cords for ceiling mounted TV

Here is some info from the UL white book.

CORD SETS AND POWER SUPPLY
CORDS (ELBZ)

This listing covers: (1) cord sets and (2) power supply cords for use as supply connections for portable appliances and (3) shore power cable sets for use as supply connections to boats that are moored to a dock.

Cord sets and power supply cords are not intended to be used as a substitute for the fixed wiring of a structure and, hence, are not intended to be fastened in place.

Cord sets and shore power cable sets are rated in volts, amps and watts.

Cord sets, shore power cable sets, and power supply cords are commonly furnished in hanked or coiled form. If used in this condition, excessive heating may occur. Therefore, when placed into service, all wrappings should be removed, and the flexible cord should be extended for its entire length
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That last paragraph seems to prohibit folding the cord back on itself and tie wrapping it. :roll:
 
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