Extreme Voltage Drop

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adrian33773

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I was an electrician helper in Florida for 3 years until I got laid off in 2008. Haven't been able to find a job in this field for over two years now due to the poor economy. Anyway, I have a serious problem in the trailer park I live in. My voltage averages about 100 from 11 PM to 9 AM. This is when most of my appliances run, just barely. During the day voltage drops to 90. A/C, microwave and fluorescent lights won't function properly. My computer constantly crashes and reboots. The TV picture frequently shrinks to a small square and the sound fades out. I'm constantly replacing ballasts, computer monitors, a refrigerator, etc. I called Progress Energy, they say the power at the meter reads 240 volts.

The entire trailer park, about 100 trailers, runs off a single meter. Our electric is included in the rent. Ten trailers on my block run off one panel with a 150 amp main breaker. Each trailer is wired for 120 volts with a 30 amp breaker each. They have 5 trailers on each leg, so nobody has 240 volts. Inside the breaker box on each trailer they ran a jumper wire connecting the two legs together since 240 volts was not available. One leg coming in to feed two legs in the trailer. Then the feed for the panel feeding these ten trailers comes from another panel that feeds 10 trailers and has a 200 amp main breaker. It has a 100 amp double pole breaker that feeds the cables running to our panel.

So, this daisy chain goes through the whole park running from panel to panel. Progress Energy says their responsibility ends at the meter. The city says the code doesn't apply because we are zoned as a campground. All these trailers have been here for 30 years and don't even have wheels anymore. They have no hurricane anchors either because that also is not required in a campground. So I guess, my question is, is there a way for me to regulate my power at 120 volts using the 90 to 105 volts that comes to my trailer?

I would move, but with my current income, I can't afford to do that.
 
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The owner of the trailer park is responsible for the upkeep of the electrical system in this case. Did you contact the owner and discuss the situation with him/her? That owner can be facing some serious liability if your trailer catches fire from equipment failing due to the low voltage.

Another important thing to find out: are any other trailers having problems? If so, then get all others affected to talk to the owner at the same time. If not, you need to dig deeper.

Have you metered the incoming voltage at your trailer's breaker? If it's good, then either your main breaker is bad or you have wiring problems in your trailer. If it's low at your main breaker, then the feeder wire to your trailer may be bad..if underground then there is a break or nick in the wire that has corroded through. (That would be especially true if you have good voltage when all of your equipment is off.)

Forget trying to regulate or step up your voltage..if you can't afford to move then you can't afford to install a boost transformer (which won't solve the problem and WILL smoke all your stuff when the real issue is fixed.)
 
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Yes, this has been going on for a while. The city said they only have a building inspector, no electrical inspector. I went around and tightened all the lugs in the panels, I also bought the antiox stuff for aluminum cables and applied that. Somebody told the owner I was screwing with the electrical and they threatened to have me evicted. I told them I was only checking my own breaker and that whoever saw me was imagining things. I told the city to leave me unanimous, but they told the owner I complained. So I'm not too popular with the park right now. About every 3 months a wire burns up under the ground and they replace it. I thought it should be in conduit under the ground and that it should be two feet under at least. However, they just replace it and bury it 6 inches under the dirt every time and the building inspector okays it. The trailer itself plugs into a receptacle and the park owns the trailer. About 25 trailers or 25% of them have this brownout problem. We have asked to move to another part of the park that doesn't have problems, but they say that is against their policy. We've been without power for three days at a time while waiting for them to make repairs and they say we don't get any discount on the rent for that either. They have unlicensed people making the repairs and the city says that's allowed on their own private property.
 
hey

hey

I hope the crowd here offers a variety of responses to you.

The only standard fix for the tenant in that situation is to move. I'm sure the load calc will show they need all new services and feeders, which may be insurmountable for the owner. Similarly, in litigation, if you think you will end up part owner of the park, the lawyer could end up majority owner and you renting from him at twice the present rate.

Keep receipts for all damaged equipment and written logs every time you measure the voltage with a meter. Someone is liable for damage caused by low voltage. Keep the record quiet until the right time, if ever.

Do not touch it, you become liable for it. Investigate only, visually and with meters, only with the owner's prior consent and compensation for your time. Try trading rent for a power drop survey and see if they want to go down that road with you. I would be interested in making a drawing of the feeder circuits to work from and checking amperage and voltage drop through the breakers under load. I'm guessing no, just asking could be trouble. Depends on perceptions of how friendly and trustworthy.

To run the bare living essentials of a fridge, 14,000 btu's AC, 250 watts for lighting or PC or TV, I cannot see the load being less than 25 amps at 120 volts continuous running load. Mulitplied by 100 trailers the park's running load is 300 kW. They could easily be dropping voltage through bad breakers and corroded connections. They could easily be dropping the voltage through the running load on #10 wire run hundreds of feet. They probably don't have the service to support all the AC they would like to run, especially if they're burning up the feeds buried underground.

Your fridge, window unit AC, and bare essentials load is 3 to 4 kW. If you happened to have a free ferro resonant line conditioner or a double conversion UPS in the 3 kW range you would have equipment that could be made to work. I get the feeling that something nonstandard like that in your situation will not fly with the neighbors.

If the owner is unwilling or unable to finance the repairs and upgrades necessary, the job cannot be sold.
 
HINT: Who has jurisdiction over the city?

If you contact them, approach the problem as a fire and safety issue... you'll get the best response that you're ever going to get on the matter.
 
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hey

hey

The park's electric bill at .12 dollars / kwh, I averaged the load as 100 kW 7/24, is $ 8640. monthly that the owner is already paying. That's WAG, I would use the number on the utility bill.

100 new services could be done economically, WAG again, for $100K, which means someone will come in and bid the drawing for $50K., excluding sitework and utility fees. I'm thinking along the line of bringing primary voltage further into the park and three or four locations for utility service transformers with ganged meter socket/main breaker gear and each tenant getting 240 volt 60 amp main breakers.

The selling point is by getting each tenant on his own utility meter and utility bill, the owner's monthly expenses will go down by what he pays now on the utility bill, in the range of $ 8.6k monthly. Payback on the investment is ~ one year+ for the owner, which is very sellable.

Presenting the job to the owner this way could get the work done. I like the fire life safety issue also. They will be paying $100K for burned up equipment and appliances pretty quickly and 20 times that if someone gets hurt.
 
__dan said:
The park's electric bill at .12 dollars / kwh, I averaged the load as 100 kW 7/24, is $ 8640. monthly that the owner is already paying. That's WAG, I would use the number on the utility bill.

100 new services could be done economically, WAG again, for $100K, which means someone will come in and bid the drawing for $50K., excluding sitework and utility fees. I'm thinking along the line of bringing primary voltage further into the park and three or four locations for utility service transformers with ganged meter socket/main breaker gear and each tenant getting 240 volt 60 amp main breakers.

The selling point is by getting each tenant on his own utility meter and utility bill, the owner's monthly expenses will go down by what he pays now on the utility bill, in the range of $ 8.6k monthly. Payback on the investment is ~ one year+ for the owner, which is very sellable.

Presenting the job to the owner this way could get the work done. I like the fire life safety issue also. They will be paying $100K for burned up equipment and appliances pretty quickly and 20 times that if someone gets hurt.
Click to expand...

You really think the owner will even entertain the idea of upgrading anything even if you do not mention any dollar amounts?

There has to be a fire and safety official that has jurisdiction and when they finally take action this owner will just let it be condemned and run with whatever money he has earned.
 
yep

yep

If the owner has been there awhile, has no mortgage, and has half a brain, getting the tenants to pay their own electricity bill and off his meter has to look attractive.

If the mortgage is over a half mil or he is under water on the debt, he could easily keep stuffing cash in a paper bag until the sheriff padlocks everything. If the short run is less than a year he could save money by abandoning the spots where the voltage is bad. Either would not surprise me.

There's may be some leverage in the State landlord tenant laws, some protective duties. The tenants need a lawyer.
 
One other thing

One other thing

If the town is serious about the campground zoning, they may refuse to issue permits for upgrades to permanent residence trailers. They may want a zoning change or refuse to issue the zoning change. They may claim a zoning violation when the ball gets rolling. Zoning is one of the worst laws ever written if you want to build new. Agency enforcement is a crowd, never just one. Health dept gets a look and may want septic upgrades to sign on to the zoning change and permits for new. Jobs costs go north of a half mil excluding the owner's lawyer fees. Add a few years for the approval time. Does the town want a smaller campground or a bigger trailer park? It's really unpredictable how this could play out.
 
OK

OK

here ya go

Forget about running AC if you can live without it. Concentrate on the fridge, PC, and TV. Keep a roof over your head. That puts your running load under 1 kW which is doable with a line conditioner. AVR line conditioners are usually rated down to 90 volts to make 120 There are two types that I am aware of, ferro resonant and auto tap changers.

Not recommending this unit, not familiar with it. Just know the price is right, something like this may be worth a try. For the fridge and PC. If it has a low voltage protective cutout that would make it a winner. There are a ton of this particular model on Ebay right now.

http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-Tripp-Lite-...0?cmd=ViewItem&pt=PCA_UPS&hash=item58855e4876

http://cgi.ebay.com/Triplite-LC-180...tem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c13351efb

http://shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_tr...kw=line+conditioner&_sacat=See-All-Categories
 
__dan said:
hThat puts your running load under 1 kW which is doable with a line conditioner. AVR line conditioners are usually rated down to 90 volts to make 120
Click to expand...

Line conditioners draw more current as they raise the voltage.

That will make it a circle, the conditioner raises the voltage, draws more current, drags the supply voltage down lower, the conditioner raises the voltage, draws more current, drags the supply voltage down lower.


I am not saying the conditioner may not help mask the problem but it certainly will not fix things.:)
 
mxslick said:
Forget trying to regulate or step up your voltage..if you can't afford to move then you can't afford to install a boost transformer (which won't solve the problem and WILL smoke all your stuff when the real issue is fixed.)
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Not only that, the kw's aren't free. Boosting low voltage increases current by the same ratio (plus), which will increase voltage drop and eventually trip your breaker.

Boosting the voltage, whether with a B/B or electronically, is effectively the same thing as re-wiring the loads for the new voltage, restoring the load on the supply.
 
overthinking it

overthinking it

It's doable if he keeps the load below 1 kW. 750 watts for the fridge and 250 watts for the PC, nothing else. That will put him at 12 amps at 85 volts. Hopefully the unit has a low voltage cutout below 90 volts incoming. Plus aggregate load will decrease as the neighbors stuff trips off the line.

If he can keep the beer cold and surf the net, that's making it.

Same price at a better seller:

http://www.amazon.com/Tripp-Lite-LC1800-Conditioner-Protection/dp/B0000514G8

and

http://www.amazon.com/Tripp-Lite-LCR2400-Conditioner-Protection/dp/B0000514M8

specs from the LC1800:
# Voltage Regulation: +10%/-12%
# Input voltages over 128V are reduced by 9.6%
# Input voltages between 103 and 112V are boosted by 8.9%
# Input voltages below 102V are boosted by 18.8%
# Network grade AC surge suppression

Forget I said this, I have a collection of ferro resonant multi kva units in the basement, but ..

Adding a 16 volt boost autotransformer in front of the LC1800 or LC2400 AVR would effectively give him another tap on the low side. The AVR can trim the high voltage if it ever saw full line 120 plus the 16 volt adder from the autotransformer. As long as the line will give him 14 amps at 85 volts and he budgets his connected load below 1 kW, it could be made to work.

No A/C loads, hopefully the camp has a nice swimming lake for cooling.
 
LarryFine said:
Not only that, the kw's aren't free. Boosting low voltage increases current by the same ratio (plus), which will increase voltage drop and eventually trip your breaker.

Boosting the voltage, whether with a B/B or electronically, is effectively the same thing as re-wiring the loads for the new voltage, restoring the load on the supply.
Click to expand...

The load with a booster is (trying anyhow) to use the same KVA as if there were normal voltage available. By increasing voltage and subsequently increasing current as you mentioned you do increase KVA seen at the meter. The lost KVA is given up as heat by the undersized conductors that are causing the voltage to drop.

One problem with a simple boost transformer is that when load is minimal, voltage will be higher than desired and this can cause a lot of problems also.
 
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