Extremely Longwinded Hot Tub Issue

[George Stolz]

I have a hot tub on a deck of a house up in the hills (I'm going to post some pictures of the view, it's awesome) and am left a little at a loss for how to proceed. This is the same PV house I have mentioned here and here and a couple other places, I'm sure.

At the rough, I pulled a 10-3 NM circuit out to the underside of the deck (which is 9' above grade). The sparse information that I had at the time was that it was probably going to require a 15A 120V circuit, but I wanted to keep my options open, as the info was sketchy at best. In general, this house is designed around consuming as little energy as possible to conserve battery usage.

The tub (was to be, and still) is heated from hydronic solar panels and a water storage tank in the maintenance room - there is no heater in the tub. It's heated exclusively from the sun, and will be taken out of service in winter.

I opened it up yesterday to look at it, and about had a heart attack when I saw the sticker: 50 amp 240 V supply.

 

[marc deschenes]

Re: Extremely Longwinded Hot Tub Issue

George Do the provisions of 680.42(A)2 apply.
The service guy could simply unplug the thing.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Extremely Longwinded Hot Tub Issue

Originally posted by marc deschenes:
George Do the provisions of 680.42(A)2 apply.
The service guy could simply unplug the thing.

Yes, that's a possibility. But the receptacle would have to be above deck, wouldn't it? It would need to be readily accessible.

(A) Flexible Connections. Listed packaged spa or hot tub equipment assemblies or self-contained spas or hot tubs utilizing a factory-installed or assembled control panel...

(Which it does)

(2) Cord-and-Plug Connections. Cord-and-plug connections with a cord not longer than 4.6 m (15 ft) shall be permitted where protected by a ground-fault circuit interrupter.

A fifteen foot cord would reach the ground, I suppose I could run it below. I think it would be pretty ugly though.

Here's some pictures:

This picture was taken on the deck the tub sits on. You can see the snow-capped peaks off in the background.

This one is from one step to the left, in the sunshine. Better picture of the closer panorama.

Here are the panels that provide the power for his house. The van with the flat tire on the right is mine.

Here is a picture of the inverter converting the 48 VDC to 120 VAC.

Here is a shot of the whole thing. I have no idea how this works.

Here are the batteries.

[ November 12, 2005, 01:08 PM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]

 

[marc deschenes]

Re: Extremely Longwinded Hot Tub Issue

George , I would place the receptacle under the skirt , that way the cord never leaves the access location. It is readily accessible to those servicing the equipment and it is within sight from it as well because the control panel and pumps are under there as well.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Extremely Longwinded Hot Tub Issue

That's a heck of an idea. I don't see any issues, but I wonder what others think?

Edit: And I know others are lurking out there.

[ November 12, 2005, 01:19 PM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]

 

[hurk27]

Re: Extremely Longwinded Hot Tub Issue

Heres what I think:
The NM has to be terminated in the outside wall since it's not listed for wet locations, and 680.21(A)(1) will require a raceway method once you leave the dwelling.

An emergency disconnect is not required for a hot tube on a dwelling,(680.41) so it does not have to be readily accessible as it is a maintenance disconnect. Why not come from underneath and install a receptacle inside the area by the control panel, as Marc has said, just open enough of the hot tub floor to make it accessible when the side is removed.

FYI LMFC is not allowed in lengths over 6' (680.42(A)(1)

 

[davedottcom]

Re: Extremely Longwinded Hot Tub Issue

I agree with Marc & Wayne.

And even if it was a 50 Amp unit, a 50 amp cord and plug should be fine underneath the skirt for a Maintenance dissconnect.
Would it not?

 

[davedottcom]

Re: Extremely Longwinded Hot Tub Issue

Originally posted by georgestolz:
And I know others are lurking out there.

George, that's Awesome! I never knew you could check whos reading what!
Very Cool!
Thanks.

[ November 12, 2005, 08:49 PM: Message edited by: davedottcom ]

 

[jes25]

Re: Extremely Longwinded Hot Tub Issue

Yeah how do you check out who's reading what?

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Extremely Longwinded Hot Tub Issue

Originally posted by hurk27:
Heres what I think:
The NM has to be terminated in the outside wall since it's not listed for wet locations, and 680.21(A)(1) will require a raceway method once you leave the dwelling.

Agreed.

An emergency disconnect is not required for a hot tube on a dwelling,(680.41) so it does not have to be readily accessible as it is a maintenance disconnect.

Yes, it does. 680.40 requires us to comply with Part I, and Part I includes...

NEC-2005 680.12 Maintenance Disconnecting Means. One or more means to disconnect all ungrounded conductors shall be provided for all utilization equipment other than lighting. Each means shall be readily accessible and within sight from its equipment.

The only word added from 2002 to 2005 is "readily."

 

[marc deschenes]

Re: Extremely Longwinded Hot Tub Issue

quote:
NEC-2005 680.12 Maintenance Disconnecting Means. One or more means to disconnect all ungrounded conductors shall be provided for all utilization equipment other than lighting. Each means shall be readily accessible and within sight from its equipment.

The question is, is this readily accessible ? To who ? and for what ?
I think the?equipment location the disconnect serves tells us all we need to know.
This is not a convenience switch it is a disconnect for those servicing the equipment .
What equipment ?
The equipment under the skirt.

I once had a disconnect on the side of a house about 8 feet away from a Hot tub. The problem was when you crouched or sat to service the equipment , you could no longer see the disconnect.

I was not made to move it but it took a fair amount of persuasion.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Extremely Longwinded Hot Tub Issue

I'll buy that.

Thanks, Marc.

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Extremely Longwinded Hot Tub Issue

Originally posted by Georgestolz
But on closer inspection, this tub has been modified for this house. The heater has been removed, leaving a 4 amp 120V pump and a 1 amp 120V pump. The red phase has been removed from where I make my terminations. This tub is no longer listed (if it ever was, I didn't notice a UL mark anywhere).

Will this pass in your state?

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Extremely Longwinded Hot Tub Issue

Why not, Mike?

Can you elaborate a little bit? I have a vague sense of where you're coming from, because I had a glimpse of it when I opened the hatch.

Unlisted hot tubs just seem to require approval to pass. I think. But this is an odd scenario for me.

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Extremely Longwinded Hot Tub Issue

The way I understand, a piece of equipment is required to have a third party listing in order to be installed.

There is a fight going on in North Carolina to do away with the listing and labeling of equipment.

Should equipment be accepted solely on the word of the installer and the inspector, well, can you see where this might end up at?

A case in point: a company here has built some show cases that have florescent lighting. These cases are sold in lots of four. The lighting is installed with the ballast in the first case and then one florescent tube in each case.
Would you install these cases? If the listing is done away with the only thing that the company needs is have an inspector approve the installation.

 

[iwire]

Re: Extremely Longwinded Hot Tub Issue

Originally posted by jwelectric:
The way I understand, a piece of equipment is required to have a third party listing in order to be installed.

Mike the NEC only requires listing on a relatively few items.

For instance I do not believe electric motors have a listing.

Part of 90.4

The authority having jurisdiction for enforcement of the Code has the responsibility for making interpretations of the rules, for deciding on the approval of equipment and materials,

Article 100

Approved. Acceptable to the authority having jurisdiction.

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Extremely Longwinded Hot Tub Issue

This is the direction that the state of NC is headed in. I strongly disagree with the decision. I think that all equipment should be third party tested before installing. To let me make the statement that a piece of equipment that I build is safe is crazy. Is this not just what the CE mark states?

 

[iwire]

Re: Extremely Longwinded Hot Tub Issue

I will never go so far as to say all equipment should be listed.

To require listings on certain products seems reasonable.

 

[roger]

Re: Extremely Longwinded Hot Tub Issue

Mike, I think N.C. is wrong in making a blanket rule that all items are third party listed.

? 66‑25. Acceptable listings as to safety of goods.

All electrical materials, devices, appliances, and equipment shall be evaluated for safety and suitability for intended use. This evaluation shall be conducted in accordance with nationally recognized standards and shall be conducted by a qualified testing laboratory. The Commissioner of Insurance, through the Engineering Division of the Department of Insurance, shall implement the procedures necessary to approve suitable national standards and to approve suitable qualified testing laboratories. The Commissioner may assign his authority to implement the procedures for specific materials, devices, appliances, or equipment to other agencies or bodies when they would be uniquely qualified to implement those procedures.

In the event that the Commissioner determines that electrical materials, devices, appliances, or equipment in question cannot be adequately evaluated through the use of approved national standards or by approved qualified testing laboratories, the Engineering Division of the Department of Insurance shall specify any alternative evaluations which safety requires.

The Engineering Division of the Department of Insurance shall keep in file, where practical, copies of all approved national standards and resumes of approved qualified testing laboratories. (1933, c. 555, s. 3; 1989, c. 681, s. 1.)

Bob is right that the majority of motors are not listed.

My take on the matter is; starting with 90.4,

The authority having jurisdiction for enforcement of of the Code has the responsibility for making interpretations of the rules, for deciding on the approval of equipment and materials, ...

this specifically allows an inspector to approve an installation on his judgement, regardless of the absence of a listing as long as the items in the installation are not specificaly required to be listed in an article.

Now 90.7, Note the second and third words, Specific items, these items are stated in the applicable articles, and relieves the AHJ of having to judge an item safe.

if the equipment has been listed by a qualified electrical testing laboratory that is recognized as having the facilities described above ...

this would also relieve the inspector of this decision if a "non specific item" is listed.

With the exception of the items called for to be listed in the specific articles, there is no mandatory rule that requires all items to be third party tested.

Note that per the NEC the only breakers that are required to be listed are those Used as Switches in 240.83(D)

Roger

 

[iwire]

Re: Extremely Longwinded Hot Tub Issue

My thinking is this, we as installers still have to use good judgment.

I can take a listed product and install it in an unsafe manor.

In your example of showcases I can not answer the question sight unseen.

If looked like it complied with applicable codes and common sense I would probably hook them up.

If I saw a 100 watt bare lamp in a confined space of combustible matrial I would not hook it up.

I bet you install more unlisted equipment than you realize.