Eye Care Facility

[raider1]

Charlie, I am not advocating exceeding the requirements of the NEC, in fact I take offence to the insinuation that I am.

I just don't feel the definition of a health care facility is a clear cut as some people think.

Chris

 

[mdshunk]

My point is simply that the NEC does not require an optician’s office to be treated as a health care facility.[/SIZE][/FONT]

NFPA 99, which is a health care facility standard, covers optometric offices

I've also wired chiropractor's offices, one acupuncturist's office, and a sports therapy/rehab office that have been required to comply with 517 in the exam rooms.

 

[petersonra]

Charlie, I am not advocating exceeding the requirements of the NEC, in fact I take offence to the insinuation that I am.

I just don't feel the definition of a health care facility is a clear cut as some people think.

Chris

It seems simple enough.

The article says the article applies to health care facilities, and then enumerates six specific uses that would make a facility a health care facility. If it is one of those six enumerated uses, it is a health care facility for the purposes of that article. If it is not one of those six uses, it isn't a health care facility for the purposes of that article.

Would you consider an aromatherapy office a health care facility? How about a massage therapist? They don't meet the definition either.

As a practical matter, the cost difference is not that great for such a small office and if you chose to wire it in accordance with the article to avoid arguing with the inspector because you determine that is cheaper than convincing him he is wrong, I don't have an issue with that. I also don't have an issue with a customer specing it that way for the same reasons. The extra few hundred dollars could easily be dwarfed by the cost of inspection delays.

 

[charlie b]

Charlie, I am not advocating exceeding the requirements of the NEC, in fact I take offence to the insinuation that I am.

My sincere apologies. I certainly intended no offense. I was trying to draw a line between what the NEC requires and what we are (sometimes) asked to do by someone who thinks it is an NEC requirement.

I just don't feel the definition of a health care facility is a clear cut as some people think.

With that I must agree.

 

[raider1]

Would you consider an aromatherapy office a health care facility? How about a massage therapist? They don't meet the definition either.

No, but neither a massage therapist nor a aromatherapist are required to have a doctoral degree. In the state of Utah you must have a doctoral degree from a school of optometry to become a licensed optometrist.

My point is that an optometrist preforms medical exams and can preform medical treatments for certain eye diseases. I believe that this would constitute medical care and the area in which medical care is provided would be a health care facility.

Chris

 

[raider1]

My sincere apologies. I certainly intended no offense. I was trying to draw a line between what the NEC requires and what we are (sometimes) asked to do by someone who thinks it is an NEC requirement.

With that I must agree.

I accept you apology, I took you comment as a personal attack and should not have read it that way, my apologies back.

I think we will have to agree to disagree with what we term a "health care facility".

Chris

 

[petersonra]

No, but neither a massage therapist nor a aromatherapist are required to have a doctoral degree. In the state of Utah you must have a doctoral degree from a school of optometry to become a licensed optometrist.

My point is that an optometrist preforms medical exams and can preform medical treatments for certain eye diseases. I believe that this would constitute medical care and the area in which medical care is provided would be a health care facility.

Chris

The code says nothing what so ever about the qualifications of the person using the office. it is not an issue at all in determining if the facility is a health care facility as defined by the article.

Most states have similar rules allowing optometrists to get an additional certification to prescribe certain medications and do some limited medical treatment. If that kind of medical treatment is going on, than there is a good argument that it is indeed a health care facility as defined by the article. However, the OP never said that.

In fact what he said was :

his office will fit patients for glasses & contact lenses, no surgery or invasive procedures.

I don't see any mention of any medical procedures there. Now a good argument can be made that a future use of the space might turn it into a health care facility as defined by the article, and thus it would need to comply at some future date, and so it makes sense to build it that way now, but based on the OP's statement of the intended use, and what the code actually says, I conclude it is not a requirement, but rather a design decision.

 

[dbuckley]

The definition seems quite clear to me: you have to be undertaking one of the six listed functions. There is then listed a non-exclusive list of places where the listed functions may be carried out. But the bottom line is if you carry out any of the listed functions in any location then you have patient care. Just because you do <something> in one of the sample listed areas (silley example: sheet metalworking) that doesn't make it a patient care area.

However... the goal isn't to wire the minimum NEC compliant installation, it's to provide the correct installation that is NEC compliant. If it waddles like a duck, quacks like a duck, then treat it the same way you would a duck.

 

[ItsHot]

toe nails

toe nails

NFPA 99, which is a health care facility standard, covers optometric offices

I've also wired chiropractor's offices, one acupuncturist's office, and a sports therapy/rehab office that have been required to comply with 517 in the exam rooms.

Marc, what about those toe nail salons? :grin:

 

[jeremysterling]

elective health care?

elective health care?

I just completed an optometrist office and adjacent retail optical space. The inspector never brought up Art. 517 and I did not even think about it until your post. I do not think people think about health care and upscale retail in the same "mall."

I was intrigued by the reply that said Wal-mart has 517 areas. I'm going to ask about that next time I'm at Wally world.

 

[ItsHot]

dentist

dentist

I just completed an optometrist office and adjacent retail optical space. The inspector never brought up Art. 517 and I did not even think about it until your post. I do not think people think about health care and upscale retail in the same "mall."

I was intrigued by the reply that said Wal-mart has 517 areas. I'm going to ask about that next time I'm at Wally world.

Wally World needs to add dentist care!! :grin:

 

[petersonra]

However... the goal isn't to wire the minimum NEC compliant installation,

The OP asked a question along the lines of what was the minimum NEC compliant installation. He didn't ask for people's opinions on how far past that he should go.

You minimum goal is always to do an installation that is compliant. Anything above that is a design decision.

 

[petersonra]

Wally World needs to add dentist care!! :grin:

I think some stores do now.

 

[lpelectric]

No, but neither a massage therapist nor a aromatherapist are required to have a doctoral degree. In the state of Utah you must have a doctoral degree from a school of optometry to become a licensed optometrist.

My point is that an optometrist preforms medical exams and can preform medical treatments for certain eye diseases. I believe that this would constitute medical care and the area in which medical care is provided would be a health care facility.

Chris

I couldn't agree more. You are absolutely right. An eye Dr. as a matter of routine practice, in these eye care centers around here at least, performs laser surgery for vision correction. There is direct contact with the patient's eye(s) and the need for redundant grounding is paramount to meeting the scope of the code which is to protect people from hazards that can arise from the use of electricity. A static charge released at an inopportune time could create a nervous reaction that could do irreparable harm to a patient. Redundant grounding path for me.

 

[petersonra]

I couldn't agree more. You are absolutely right. An eye Dr. as a matter of routine practice, in these eye care centers around here at least, performs laser surgery for vision correction. There is direct contact with the patient's eye(s) and the need for redundant grounding is paramount to meeting the scope of the code which is to protect people from hazards that can arise from the use of electricity. A static charge released at an inopportune time could create a nervous reaction that could do irreparable harm to a patient. Redundant grounding path for me.

The OP specifically stated that no surgical procedures would be performed in the space. You guys have to get away from what you think the space might be used for (or might eventually be used for) to what question the OP actually asked.

 

[raider1]

The OP specifically stated that no surgical procedures would be performed in the space. You guys have to get away from what you think the space might be used for (or might eventually be used for) to what question the OP actually asked.

The OPer went on to say that patients would be examined with a variety of diagonistic instruments, so I would say that medical care was being given within the exam rooms. JMHO

Yes, the patients will be examined, so considering this I expect this falls under Article 517. There will be a variety of diagnostic instruments in use in the examining rooms. I now expect Part B will apply. Comments?

Chris

 

[lpelectric]

The OP specifically stated that no surgical procedures would be performed in the space. You guys have to get away from what you think the space might be used for (or might eventually be used for) to what question the OP actually asked.

The OP substituted the word HEALTH with the word EYE in the term "Health Care Facility", to the term Eye Care Facility". The notion that an "Eye Care Facility" would not include surgical procedures is worthy of debate. The OP went on to say "Any comments will be appreciated" or something to that effect.
Just as much as "us guys have to get away from what we think the space will be used for", you guys have to get away from what it is unlikely to be used for, when it is unclear about what it will be used for. I've seen 6 different physician's offices with examining rooms wired in NM cable in the last year in the north country because electricians misread or misapplied the rules of 517. Trying to gain compliance after the fact is damned difficult.

 

[elohr46]

I just completed an optometrist office and adjacent retail optical space. The inspector never brought up Art. 517 and I did not even think about it until your post. I do not think people think about health care and upscale retail in the same "mall."

I was intrigued by the reply that said Wal-mart has 517 areas. I'm going to ask about that next time I'm at Wally world.

In my area (Phila and surrounding counties) that optometrist office/room is definitely classified as a 517 health care facility, redundant ground needed. The retail optical space no.