FA Box Depth

Many, in fact most manufacturers speakers and speaker strobes require 3 1/2" deep boxes. And the only one I am familiar with that doesn't, (some Simplex) are not easy to install unless the box is a 3 1/2" deep.
 
It depends on the style of speaker/strobe. Some of the new ones would not require a deep box. The old style with the bulk of the speaker within the box required the biggest box you could get.
 
On a side note how often are wall mounted fire alarm devices mounted directly to a stud as above to between where I assume you'd need a telescoping bar? Also wouldn't you always need a plaster ring if mounted within sheetrock wall?
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Alwayslearningelec said:
On a side note how often are wall mounted fire alarm devices mounted directly to a stud as above to between where I assume you'd need a telescoping bar? Also wouldn't you always need a plaster ring if mounted within sheetrock wall?
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You need to look at the device to see what type of box is required. Some of the newer designs can be used with different box types. Back in the day a speaker strobe would only mount to the diagonal holes on a 1900 box so they got mounted flush with the sheetrock.
 
Alwayslearningelec said:
On a side note how often are wall mounted fire alarm devices mounted directly to a stud as above to between where I assume you'd need a telescoping bar? Also wouldn't you always need a plaster ring if mounted within sheetrock wall?
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Yes, no and maybe.

Basically, the devices that mount in the deep boxes mount directly to the screw pattern of a 4S box. That actually creates a MAJOR pain when trying to set their depth. I have a lot of experience supervising this. A huge percentage of boxes are not set well either too far back, forward, or crooked. A hammer and a 2x4 are common tools after rough in to adjust the boxes. But, more often than not, they can be screwed directly to a stud because EXACT placement isn't a concern. I find that when they are mounted on a focus wall, like in a lobby, or a wall where art or logos are going to be hung you may need to use a bar.

All that said, talk to your Project Managers about whether this is an issue. Orbit and Caddy both have a product line that I highly recommend. They are pricey, but I and my team believe they are worth the price to prevent the above issues. The one in this link that mounts to the Big O bracket is about $24 each. The ceiling one closer to $27, but again the labor and rework savings are large.

https://www.orbitelectric.com/fa-ssb-umiab-35.html
 
Strathead said:
Yes, no and maybe.

Basically, the devices that mount in the deep boxes mount directly to the screw pattern of a 4S box. That actually creates a MAJOR pain when trying to set their depth. I have a lot of experience supervising this. A huge percentage of boxes are not set well either too far back, forward, or crooked. A hammer and a 2x4 are common tools after rough in to adjust the boxes. But, more often than not, they can be screwed directly to a stud because EXACT placement isn't a concern. I find that when they are mounted on a focus wall, like in a lobby, or a wall where art or logos are going to be hung you may need to use a bar.

All that said, talk to your Project Managers about whether this is an issue. Orbit and Caddy both have a product line that I highly recommend. They are pricey, but I and my team believe they are worth the price to prevent the above issues. The one in this link that mounts to the Big O bracket is about $24 each. The ceiling one closer to $27, but again the labor and rework savings are large.

https://www.orbitelectric.com/fa-ssb-umiab-35.html
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So you're referring to box that get mounted WITHOUT plaster ring?
 
Alwayslearningelec said:
So you're referring to box that get mounted WITHOUT plaster ring?
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yes. BTW, most fire alarm devices can be mounted without even if the can be mounted with. I suggest you get your hands on a set of submittals from, Notifier, Silent Knight, EST, Simplex and revies their mounting requirements.
 
Strathead said:
yes. BTW, most fire alarm devices can be mounted without even if the can be mounted with. I suggest you get your hands on a set of submittals from, Notifier, Silent Knight, EST, Simplex and revies their mounting requirements.
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So your saying that even if there is a gyp wall and the box is recessed you don't have to have a plaster ring? Unlike receptacles.
 
infinity said:
Post #5. Can you post a cut of the devices?
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FYI, and I have PM'd him and asked this question. He is not project managing, so typically he is just estimating. In my experience that means no specific manufacturer fire alarm devices, so no cut sheets. I often delve deeply in to the fire alarm aspect of jobs. As you posted, back in the day, which BTW, it was typical to use Wheelock devices, they mounted ONLY to a 4S box pattern. Today, almost all devices can mount to a single gang P ring except speakers which usually require the 4S pattern AND a 3 1/2" deep box. Also for clarity, exterior devices require a factory provided backbox to achieve the UL listing for WP.
 
Strathead said:
FYI, and I have PM'd him and asked this question. He is not project managing, so typically he is just estimating. In my experience that means no specific manufacturer fire alarm devices, so no cut sheets. I often delve deeply in to the fire alarm aspect of jobs. As you posted, back in the day, which BTW, it was typical to use Wheelock devices, they mounted ONLY to a 4S box pattern. Today, almost all devices can mount to a single gang P ring except speakers which usually require the 4S pattern AND a 3 1/2" deep box. Also for clarity, exterior devices require a factory provided backbox to achieve the UL listing for WP.
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I would assume if the device type is unknown that there is a standard box used for estimating purposes? We did a renovation job a few years ago where the building standard was the old Wheelock type. Funny thing is that post covid they couldn't get the new devices in time so the building actually bought used ones on E-bay.
 
infinity said:
I would assume if the device type is unknown that there is a standard box used for estimating purposes? We did a renovation job a few years ago where the building standard was the old Wheelock type. Funny thing is that post covid they couldn't get the new devices in time so the building actually bought used ones on E-bay.
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Yeah, before I discovered the box I linked above, I used a deep 4s 3/4 mud ring TSGB bracket for wall devices, except speakers, I would add a 1 1/2" box and some labor because it takes forever to get a box with no mudring properly installed.
 
Strathead said:
Yeah, before I discovered the box I linked above, I used a deep 4s 3/4 mud ring TSGB bracket for wall devices, except speakers, I would add a 1 1/2" box and some labor because it takes forever to get a box with no mudring properly installed.
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So again so I'm clear and I apologize. You're saying when you set a box not needing a mud ring it takes longer to set and take get even with the finish?
 
Alwayslearningelec said:
So again so I'm clear and I apologize. You're saying when you set a box not needing a mud ring it takes longer to set and take get even with the finish?
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In theory yes but the amount of time can be negligable. Method 1. Boxes with mud rings typcially have a bracket that gets screwed to the face of the stud. The mud ring is chosen based on the thickness of the drywall and that's it it is perfectly set.

Method 2. So without the mud ring and bracket you'll need to set the box so that it ends up flush with the finished drywall. With the first method the installation is "self adjusting" where you just screw in the bracket and you're done. The second method requires more guess work.
 
infinity said:
In theory yes but the amount of time can be negligable. Method 1. Boxes with mud rings typcially have a bracket that gets screwed to the face of the stud. The mud ring is chosen based on the thickness of the drywall and that's it it is perfectly set.

Method 2. So without the mud ring and bracket you'll need to set the box so that it ends up flush with the finished drywall. With the first method the installation is "self adjusting" where you just screw in the bracket and you're done. The second method requires more guess work.
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When you say bracket you men something like this.

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So I'm making assemblies in my database. I'm wondering if I should make one for have the device mounted to stud(bracket) and another for one that may be mounted in between studs( telescoping). But when bidding how would one know which type would actually be used in field?

I know I may be getting too "precise" and it's only an "estimate" but I believe the telescoping bar is 3-4x the price of bracket.

Guess it comes down to how often is each really used. If a device is mounted to stud 80-90% of time then really no need to worry about telescoping mounting but if telescoping is used often then it's something to be concerned with.
 
infinity said:
In theory yes but the amount of time can be negligable. Method 1. Boxes with mud rings typcially have a bracket that gets screwed to the face of the stud. The mud ring is chosen based on the thickness of the drywall and that's it it is perfectly set.

Method 2. So without the mud ring and bracket you'll need to set the box so that it ends up flush with the finished drywall. With the first method the installation is "self adjusting" where you just screw in the bracket and you're done. The second method requires more guess work.
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In my experience the time isn't negligible. With a mudring the sheetrock sets its depth. If it is too far out then a slight bulge appears in the sheetrock, but that is generally not visible. With the 4s nothing holds the box in. I won't speak to percentages, but It is rare to have a job that there aren't boxes sticking out of the wall.
 
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