FA cable splicing

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joeycvalientes

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Doha, Qatar
[FONT=Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Is the splicing of fire alarm cable allowed?[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]What I know is not allowed but can you help me where in NFPA i can find it?[/FONT]
 
gadfly56

gadfly56

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
joeycvalientes said:
[FONT=Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Is the splicing of fire alarm cable allowed?[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]What I know is not allowed but can you help me where in NFPA i can find it?[/FONT]
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It is not forbidden.

You won't find anything in NFPA 70 or 72.

Most manufacturers will tell you to splice at the device, which is normal, or at a terminal block if necessary. Many job specs will forbid splices anywhere except at a device or a terminal cabinet.
 
kwired

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
760.130(B) contains: "Cable splices or terminations shall be made in listed fittings, boxes, enclosures, fire alarm devices, or utilization equipment."

Not a direct answer to OP's question, but I think it kind of is a hint that splicing is permitted, but in specific places and not just anywhere.
 
iwire

iwire

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Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
In RI there you wire through fire alarm devices or you install a lockable fire alarm terminal cabinet. No wire nuts to be used.

849137001807.jpg


It can be a pain.
 
Besoeker

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
kwired said:
760.130(B) contains: "Cable splices or terminations shall be made in listed fittings, boxes, enclosures, fire alarm devices, or utilization equipment."

Not a direct answer to OP's question, but I think it kind of is a hint that splicing is permitted, but in specific places and not just anywhere.
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I would think that's sound advice and good practice anyway. And not just for fire alarm cables.
 
kwired

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
iwire said:
In RI there you wire through fire alarm devices or you install a lockable fire alarm terminal cabinet. No wire nuts to be used.

849137001807.jpg


It can be a pain.
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What is included in "wire nuts" description?

I believe "wire nut" is actually the name of one of Ideal's twist on connector product lines, but many in the field call all twist on connectors wire nuts.

Thing that sort of doesn't make sense with such a rule is that fire alarm circuits are typically "supervised" loop circuits, and if your connection method should fail the system will detect the failure and notify the operator of such system there is trouble on the system, though I guess you can make somewhat similar argument for needing to make connections in a box or other enclosure as well.
 
iwire

iwire

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Besoeker said:
I would think that's sound advice and good practice anyway. And not just for fire alarm cables.
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Sound practice and code are different matters

Sound practice or not the NEC does not generally require enclosures for splices in cables and conductors running at these power levels.


Our class 2 and 3 circuits along with data, CCTV, telephone, etc none of them require enclosures for terminations and splices.
 
iwire

iwire

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Location
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kwired said:
What is included in "wire nuts" description?
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:slaphead::slaphead:

Seriously?

For one thing, you are asking this like I actually quoted the code. I do not recall what the code specifically says in this regard.

I do know if we use what electricians commonly call a wirenut we will fail.

Thing that sort of doesn't make sense with such a rule is that fire alarm circuits are typically "supervised" loop circuits, and if your connection method should fail the system will detect the failure and notify the operator of such system there is trouble on the system,
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Are you familiar with the movie 'My cousin Vinnie'?

Judge Chamberlain Haller: That is a lucid, intelligent, well thought-out objection.

Vinny Gambini: Thank you, Your Honor.

Judge Chamberlain Haller: [firm tone] Overruled.
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That is how that would work out in RI. :)
 
Besoeker

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
iwire said:
Sound practice and code are different matters
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I totally agree - that's the point I was getting at.

I have no hands on experience with fire protection systems - I have a notion that you may have to be certified to do that.
But you know I was involved in the design and manufacture of industrial electrical panels (some of which had to be NEC compliant depending on the country of destination.)
Many of the customer specs for that kit was far more stringent that what code or standards would permit.
Splicing just was not allowed.
 
kwired

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
iwire said:
:slaphead::slaphead:

Seriously?

For one thing, you are asking this like I actually quoted the code. I do not recall what the code specifically says in this regard.

I do know if we use what electricians commonly call a wirenut we will fail.



Are you familiar with the movie 'My cousin Vinnie'?



That is how that would work out in RI. :)
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Part of asking what is considered a wire nut might include - are "Wago Wall Nuts" or similar devices included in what is not permitted? They are not twist on connectors, some may consider them superior, some may think less of them then a twist on. How do they feel about crimp on sleeve type splicing methods? solder and tape? Or is screw terminals all that is acceptable for terminations, I was mostly serious.
 
N

nhfire77

Senior Member
Location
NH
FA cable splicing

It's always so refreshing to hear how shocked and offended those not from New England get when they hear about RI.... Or any other local AHJ's nonstandard code. (i don't do RI work(

But this trend is spreading across the country. Too many hacks causing inspectors headaches. Just heard from an inspector that had to do three reinspections for a strip mall tenant upfit with 3 horn strobes, 1 smoke and 1 annunciator. Yes there are reinspection fees but it's the time chewed up is the problem. He checked in with me because the guy was adamant the system couldn't do X. Yet we installed the same system down the road and it was doing X.

Or the classic EC with no understanding of FA with a hand drawn plan (not a neat one one and not to scale). Now that's understandable for a tiny change in a small system but not a complete submittal.

However this is not a rant but a request for those guys to keep it up......because we're making bank cleaning up this kind of thing and following the quirky local laws


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
N

nhfire77

Senior Member
Location
NH
iwire said:
:slaphead::slaphead:

Seriously?

For one thing, you are asking this like I actually quoted the code. I do not recall what the code specifically says in this regard.

I do know if we use what electricians commonly call a wirenut we will fail.



Are you familiar with the movie 'My cousin Vinnie'?



That is how that would work out in RI. :)
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Great movie, great quote....applies to most MA and NH fire departments too.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
iwire

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
kwired said:
Part of asking what is considered a wire nut might include - are "Wago Wall Nuts" or similar devices included in what is not permitted? They are not twist on connectors, some may consider them superior, some may think less of them then a twist on. How do they feel about crimp on sleeve type splicing methods? solder and tape? Or is screw terminals all that is acceptable for terminations, I was mostly serious.
Click to expand...

So here is the RI rule, pick it apart. :D

Add) 13.8.10.6.5
Any fire alarm wiring between the fire alarm control unit and remote terminal cabinets or between remote terminal cabinets may, at the option of the installer, be a multi-conductor cable with each conductor numbered at two-inch (2") intervals.

All wiring from a terminal cabinet(s) to an alarm device(s) shall conform to the color code specified before herein. Terminal cabinets with hinged, lockable red covers shall be provided at all junction points. All conductor splices or terminations shall be made on screw-type terminal blocks - wire nuts, butt or crimp type connectors shall not be used. All terminals within a terminal cabinet shall be properly labeled.
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jumper

jumper

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gadfly56

gadfly56

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
jumper said:
Google says Qatar uses British Standards, not the NEC.

BS 5445......................Components of automatic fire detection systems
BS 5839......................Fire detection and alarm systems for building
BS 5306......................Fire extinguishing installations and equipment on premises
BS 6360......................Conductors in insulated cables and cords

https://amtcqatarwp.files.wordpress.com/2015/04/section-23-fire-fighting-and-fire-alrm-systems.pdf
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I totally missed that. He asked about NFPA and I assumed he was in the US. My bad. :ashamed1:
 
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