davedottcom
Senior Member
2 Unused spaces must be left available in every panel?
I've heard this before but can't find any article.
I've heard this before but can't find any article.
Fact or Fiction!?
- Thread starter davedottcom
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growler
Senior Member
- Location
- Atlanta,GA
davedottcom said:
As far as I know the NEC makes no provisions for future expansion.
What good would an unused spaced be unless some one was going to use it and then it wouldn't be an unused space. ( Catch 22 ). :grin:
Bill Annett
Senior Member
- Location
- Wheeling, WV
- Occupation
- Retired ( 2020 ) City Electrical inspector
Article 90.8 Wiring Planning. Part A Future expansion and convience mentions some items about your topic.
davedottcom
Senior Member
Excellent Point!
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D
Dickieboy
Guest
I have worked solely on the design side of the fence for Industrial Clients and invaribly it is written 25% spare space at commisioning be available for plant growth. It is not a NEC requirment to my knowledge(which is limited)
dick
dick
DanZ
Senior Member
Catch 22 doesn't exist!growler said:
Hmm...I've been called on that before. Now that's really making me wonder. I guess I'll have to make sure I get a code citation next time.
Maybe we should start employing the lessons taught in that book. The unwritten rule (catch 22) is they can do anything they want, as long as you put up with it. We should stop putting up with it, every time!:grin:
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
I have filled panels without hesitation, such as in townhouses and apartments where the odds are astronomical that an additional circuit would ever be added, and it's never been an issue.
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
- Occupation
- Massachusetts Master Electrician, one man show.
LarryFine said:
So it's been you all these years......
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician
billisa67 said:
But is anything in Article 90 enforceable?
- Location
- Massachusetts
480sparky said:
IMO you can not 'enforce' information which is all Article 90 contains.
It's like saying you can enforce a math book.
480sparky said:
Ken, there is no wording in the introduction that is a rule.
The style manual points out that article 90 is just an introduction with administrative provisions and the following chapters contain the code requirements. The introduction explains what FPN's, shall, shall not, etc... are and how they are used in the code chapters
Roger
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Mr.Sparkle
Senior Member
- Location
- Jersey Shore
90.1(B) Adequacy. This code contains provisions that are considered necessary for safety. Compliance therewith and proper maintenance results in an installation that is essentially free from hazard but not necessarily effecient, convenient, or adequate for good service or future expansion of electrical use.
crossman
Senior Member
- Location
- Southeast Texas
Just to be contrary, if 90.2 Scope (A) Covered is not enforcable, then if I tell the inspector that the extra receptacles, light fixutres, and hot tub we added to my cousin's double-wide mobile home is not covered by the code, then how can he enforce an inspection of said mobile home?
- Location
- Massachusetts
crossman said:
The NEC has nothing to do with inspections. :grin:
Beyond that you will never enforce 90.2 you will enforce the rest of the code.
crossman
Senior Member
- Location
- Southeast Texas
Hmmmm....
okay, here is another...
90.9(C)(4) Safety. Where a negative impact on safety would result, soft conversion shall be used.
Inspector: "Hmmm... that installation does not look safe to me."
EC: "Really? I used hard conversion when making the calculation for that."
Inspector: "Oh, you did? Well I feel you should have used a soft conversion in the interest of safety. You are in violation of the NEC."
EC: "Could you please give a Code reference for that violation of using hard conversion where I should have used soft conversion?"
Inspector: "90.9(C)(4) = RED TAG!" <Inspector slaps bright red sticker on panel and gleefully struts across the parking lot to his car, chuckling to himself all the while>
okay, here is another...
90.9(C)(4) Safety. Where a negative impact on safety would result, soft conversion shall be used.
Inspector: "Hmmm... that installation does not look safe to me."
EC: "Really? I used hard conversion when making the calculation for that."
Inspector: "Oh, you did? Well I feel you should have used a soft conversion in the interest of safety. You are in violation of the NEC."
EC: "Could you please give a Code reference for that violation of using hard conversion where I should have used soft conversion?"
Inspector: "90.9(C)(4) = RED TAG!" <Inspector slaps bright red sticker on panel and gleefully struts across the parking lot to his car, chuckling to himself all the while>
- Location
- Massachusetts
Take look at 90.3,
Article 90 is an introduction and Chapters 1 and above apply generally or specifically.
No mention of the introduction applying generally.
I rarely say never but IMO there will never be a legitimate red tag that starts 90.
Article 90 is an introduction and Chapters 1 and above apply generally or specifically.
No mention of the introduction applying generally.
I rarely say never but IMO there will never be a legitimate red tag that starts 90.
crossman said:
And although you probably wouldn't, this is a perfect case of where you should contest the ruling in that 90.9 or any other part of 90 is not a mandatory code rule.
If you were reading a novel the introduction sets up the story and is informing the reader of special definitions, landscapes, areas, etc..., but it is not the story or even a chapter, this is exactly what is pointed out in the style manual.
Roger
glene77is
Senior Member
- Location
- Memphis, TN
We have used small Sub-Panels which have more 'spaces' than you should utilize due to overloading possibilities. These 'extra spaces' have CB mounting which will not accept a CB.
GE makes a panel rated at 125A, which has these odd mounts which can't be used, (unless you grind the tabs off). These panels at 125A were 12/16 ckt years back, and now are maybe 8/16.
There is a good reason for limiting the number of CB in a panel!
I've seen a GE 125A panel of this style, with 16 half-size CB installed.
There were 12x20A(120v) and 2x30A (240v).
The Main Breaker was a 70A,
and the service was a very old 60A Residential.
Could this be where the rumor started?
GE makes a panel rated at 125A, which has these odd mounts which can't be used, (unless you grind the tabs off). These panels at 125A were 12/16 ckt years back, and now are maybe 8/16.
There is a good reason for limiting the number of CB in a panel!
I've seen a GE 125A panel of this style, with 16 half-size CB installed.
There were 12x20A(120v) and 2x30A (240v).
The Main Breaker was a 70A,
and the service was a very old 60A Residential.
Could this be where the rumor started?
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