Failed inspection with no violation?

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sfav8r

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OK, I hate to seem like I am anti-inspector, and for the record I am not. I find the vast majority of inspectors to be professional, concerned about doing a good job, and reasonable. Having said that, I just don't know what to do with an inspector that does what this one just did.

Shows up for the inspection, I explain briefly what we just did, he says OK, takes a look at the work and then grabs the #4 feed to the panel (we just replaced the feeders, not the panel). He says that the feeder seems warm to the touch and that it must be over loaded. I feel the wire and it feels room temperature to me, maybe slightly warmer which is no surprise. He says he wants me to put a probe on it and measure the current. I don't happen to have an amprobe on me but I point out that the #4 is good for 100 amps and there are only 6 breakers in the panel...two 2P 30s connected to non-continuous loads, two 2P 20s connected to non continuous loads and two 15a general circuits. The biggest loads, the 2 2P 30s are connected to heaters which aren't even on at the time so it would be virtually impossible for any perceived temperature increase to be due to overloading.

He says he's not comfortable with it and writes on the job card that we need to install a panel rated for the loads! I explain the the panel he is looking at is rated for the present loads and he just says "I'm not comfortable with it" and walks away.

How the heck do you deal with a guy like this? I'm sure I can go up a level and get the signature, but it's such a waste of time.
 
You can't use table 310.15(B)(6) for a sub feeder, you should have a #3 copper, to it, and with the breakers even adding the handles wont give you 100 amps? (65 amps) I would talk to someone at the building dept, as this doesn't even make sense? the amount of circuits you posted tell me this isn't the main service SEC's or the main service feeders, so what is the rating of the service?
 
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Inspector was right

I would not pass your job if you only had 1 20 amp circuit on that panel with it being fed with #4 with a 100A breaker. If you changed the main breaker to a 70A, I would pass it.

~Matt
 
hurk27 said:
You can't use table 310.15(B)(6) for a sub feeder, you should have a #3 copper, to it, and with the breakers even adding the handles wont give you 100 amps? (65 amps) I would talk to someone at the building dept, as this doesn't even make sense? the amount of circuits you posted tell me this isn't the main service SEC's or the main service feeders, so what is the rating of the service?
Click to expand...

This is the first panel from the 400a main (there are several panels feed from the main in parallel), so I believe it qualifies under 310.15(b)(6), but this really isn't my main point. I'm mainly talking about his comment about installing a panel rated for the loads (based on feeling the feeder) without their being an over loaded condition.
 
The inspector made the right call from the wrong perspective. Unless he quotes a code article or has documentation for having his hands calibrated and certified for detecting overload conditions based upon touch, then he is out of line. His whole "not comfortable with it" attitude bugs the snot out of me too.

That being said, T310.15(B)(6) is for 3-wire main services and feeders. Your #4 is too small.
 
sfav8r

4 AWG Type THHN is rated for 85A in the 75C column.
240.4(B) permits rounding up, and 240.6 would permit you to round up to a 90A overcurrent device supplying the 100A panel, as long as the calculated load is not greater than 85A.

I would change the breaker and provide a calculation.
 
You need a load calculation, not a sum of breakers. Likewise, the inspector needs to realize that even 40C feels warm and if the wire is 60C you still have a ways to go before it is overloaded (assuming a 75C wire and termination).
 
sfav8r said:
OK, I hate to seem like I am anti-inspector, and for the record I am not. I find the vast majority of inspectors to be professional, concerned about doing a good job, and reasonable. Having said that, I just don't know what to do with an inspector that does what this one just did.

Shows up for the inspection, I explain briefly what we just did, he says OK, takes a look at the work and then grabs the #4 feed to the panel (we just replaced the feeders, not the panel). He says that the feeder seems warm to the touch and that it must be over loaded. I feel the wire and it feels room temperature to me, maybe slightly warmer which is no surprise. He says he wants me to put a probe on it and measure the current. I don't happen to have an amprobe on me but I point out that the #4 is good for 100 amps and there are only 6 breakers in the panel...two 2P 30s connected to non-continuous loads, two 2P 20s connected to non continuous loads and two 15a general circuits. The biggest loads, the 2 2P 30s are connected to heaters which aren't even on at the time so it would be virtually impossible for any perceived temperature increase to be due to overloading.

He says he's not comfortable with it and writes on the job card that we need to install a panel rated for the loads! I explain the the panel he is looking at is rated for the present loads and he just says "I'm not comfortable with it" and walks away.

How the heck do you deal with a guy like this? I'm sure I can go up a level and get the signature, but it's such a waste of time.
Click to expand...

You mentioned that the wire feels warmer than room temperature with the biggest loads not turned on, that should tell you something right there. I would not be comfortable with that install either.
 
not defending the inspector, but a curiosity question.
Is this feeder tapped directly off the load 400 amp disconnect and how long is it ?
 
Like the others said your #4 is not sized for your installation with a 100 amp breaker. That being said a code section should have been cited.
 
Myself, I try to know and understand all codes regarding any work I am doing. I review the NEC regularly regarding any work. I have very seldom failed an inspection. But I really feel wiring tables should be throughly understood by ALL electricians.

The number of men that misapply these tables is amazing. Is the apprenticeship missing something?

When doing something unusual for me like a pool I tear into the NEC,
 
I may be wrong but I think the OP is talking about a service riser feed, and a panel with no main.

#4 is good for a 100 amp riser to the POCO.

I personally use #2-100 amp and 3/0-200 amp. services. Mainly because I stock the 3/0. The #2?? how much savings on a 10' riser?
 
there is only one reason we have inspectors working like this. (passive electricians). Oh the countless times ive heard stories of inspectors turning something down for a silly made up reason, the electrician just takes the attitude "ill just fix it to make him happy", or "to keep piece" or " I have to work with this inspector on future jobs so we have to get along", ect....If you like running your business politically then stop complaining. I on the other hand refuse politics. I make every inspector cite a article on the inspection sheet. If he cannot, then Im off to his boss, then his boss, then his boss, then to my attorney. It could be the absolutely smallest of a issue, that i could "correct" for him on the spot, but I refuse to. My take is if its a violation then show me, I alway welcome the learning experience, however dont come on my job site with words like, " we like to see this here" or " in this town..." or "I think" ect.. blah , blah, BS.
 
scwirenut said:
there is only one reason we have inspectors working like this. (passive electricians). Oh the countless times ive heard stories of inspectors turning something down for a silly made up reason, the electrician just takes the attitude "ill just fix it to make him happy", or "to keep piece" or " I have to work with this inspector on future jobs so we have to get along", ect....If you like running your business politically then stop complaining. I on the other hand refuse politics. I make every inspector cite a article on the inspection sheet. If he cannot, then Im off to his boss, then his boss, then his boss, then to my attorney. It could be the absolutely smallest of a issue, that i could "correct" for him on the spot, but I refuse to. My take is if its a violation then show me, I alway welcome the learning experience, however dont come on my job site with words like, " we like to see this here" or " in this town..." or "I think" ect.. blah , blah, BS.
Click to expand...


I love the look on their face when you pin them down.

Last one was,"well, I'll let you get away with it this time". I felt like saying, "no, don't let me get away with it". Was glad I had enough forbearance to bite my tong.

Funny how it is, it seems more personal than anything.

Put a uniform on some people or give them a title with leverage over another and they can't help but push and shove.
 
sfav8r said:
This is the first panel from the 400a main (there are several panels feed from the main in parallel), so I believe it qualifies under 310.15(b)(6), but this really isn't my main point. I'm mainly talking about his comment about installing a panel rated for the loads (based on feeling the feeder) without their being an over loaded condition.
Click to expand...

I believe prior to the 2008 NEC change, 310.15(B)(6) would allow the table to be used for the feeders from the main service disconnect to the main branch circuit panels, but the 2008 wording now requires that the feeders to serve all the load of the house to use 310.15(B)(6)
In 2011 it will be changed back I hope.
 
scwirenut said:
there is only one reason we have inspectors working like this. (passive electricians). Oh the countless times ive heard stories of inspectors turning something down for a silly made up reason, the electrician just takes the attitude "ill just fix it to make him happy", or "to keep piece" or " I have to work with this inspector on future jobs so we have to get along", ect....If you like running your business politically then stop complaining. I on the other hand refuse politics. I make every inspector cite a article on the inspection sheet. If he cannot, then Im off to his boss, then his boss, then his boss, then to my attorney. It could be the absolutely smallest of a issue, that i could "correct" for him on the spot, but I refuse to. My take is if its a violation then show me, I alway welcome the learning experience, however dont come on my job site with words like, " we like to see this here" or " in this town..." or "I think" ect.. blah , blah, BS.
Click to expand...

Bravo! My sentiments exactly. And I was an inspector for 23 years!
 
IF....Residential service
IF....#4 is service feeder
If....only six breakers
Provide a load calc and ask him to show you a code reference for " I'm not comfortable with it".

If he still does not like it, call his boss. You can not let him make his own code. It will not stop.
 
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