Failed Inspection

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A&S Group

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Dear Forum,
Massachusetts,
I failed an Inspection, I installed 3- 4" old work recessed lights on the 1st floor of a two family house. I failed because I breach the 2 hour fire rating of the ceiling. He's making me build out fire boxes to fire rate these fixtures. Are we allowed to do any old work in multifamily or is this a misinterputation.
What customer will let you build all these fire boxes if they wanted recessed lighting thru-out the house. What is the purpose
of old work?
 
A&S Group said:
Dear Forum,
Massachusetts,
I failed an Inspection, I installed 3- 4" old work recessed lights on the 1st floor of a two family house. I failed because I breach the 2 hour fire rating of the ceiling. He's making me build out fire boxes to fire rate these fixtures. Are we allowed to do any old work in multifamily or is this a misinterputation.
What customer will let you build all these fire boxes if they wanted recessed lighting thru-out the house. What is the purpose
of old work?
Click to expand...
Never pull a permit again....:slaphead:


What town is this in and what code section is he citing ?:blink:
 
A&S Group said:
... What is the purpose
of old work?
Click to expand...
To use in places where a 2 hour fire rated wall or ceiling is not required. A single family dwelling or a commercial property for instance. :)

Old work boxes in walls can have the same problem if you put them into a common wall between occupancies, although you might be able to get away with fire padding and avoiding putting two boxes directly opposite each other.
 
A&S Group said:
Malden, and he did not have the code article
Click to expand...

He needs to give you that in writing, there is nothing in the mass code that says that and I find it hard to believe it would be in the mass building code.

Who's supposed to pay for all the extra work?

Welcome to the forum.:thumbsup:
 
A&S Group said:
Dear Forum,
Massachusetts,
I failed an Inspection, I installed 3- 4" old work recessed lights on the 1st floor of a two family house. I failed because I breach the 2 hour fire rating of the ceiling. He's making me build out fire boxes to fire rate these fixtures. Are we allowed to do any old work in multifamily or is this a misinterputation.
What customer will let you build all these fire boxes if they wanted recessed lighting thru-out the house. What is the purpose
of old work?
Click to expand...

You penetrated a fire rated assembly and the inspector wants you to maintain the integrity of that rated assembly. He is doing his job. You need to hope there's no fire there between now and when you get that repaired.

For 2-hours you're probably going to need a listed assembly, but you can start at your supply house for off-the-shelf products that may suffice. Make sure you get a cut sheet on the product for the inspector.

If you can't find something on the market, you can refer to the Gypsum Association catalog (it's free) if you go here: http://www.gypsum.org/product/fire-resistance-design-manual-ga-600-12-view-only/
 
Boxes in a fire rated assembly (2 hour ceiling) must be attached to the structure, in this case the ceiling joists. The old work style box cannot be supported solely by the drywall.
 
these are not old work boxes these are 4" recessed lights.

I can see how this could be enforced I'm looking for an strong article to support this.
at least 50% of the dwelling in this area are multi-family and the ceiling don't have that rating as it is. We have all horsehair plaster for construction in this area in these old homes. Also mostly Ballon framing.
 
LEO2854 said:
He needs to give you that in writing, there is nothing in the mass code that says that and I find it hard to believe it would be in the mass building code.

Who's supposed to pay for all the extra work?

Welcome to the forum.:thumbsup:
Click to expand...

The mass state building code requires such things.

The customer has to pay.
 
A&S Group said:
these are not old work boxes these are 4" recessed lights.

I can see how this could be enforced I'm looking for an strong article to support this.
at least 50% of the dwelling in this area are multi-family and the ceiling don't have that rating as it is. We have all horsehair plaster for construction in this area in these old homes. Also mostly Ballon framing.
Click to expand...

OK, but the answer likely remains the same if it's a rated ceiling. :)
 
NoAn interesting remaining question is what happens if the ceiling is required to be 2 hour rated but never actually was. (For example missed or not code required when converted from single family to multiple...)
In that case the cans might make it worse but building the cans into boxes would still not make the while ceiling compliant.
Again, it would be building code and or rental housing code, not NEC.

Tapatalk!
 
Last edited:
Think of it from a fires stand point.

If the room your working on catches fire, the can lights you've installed make a great path for the fire to travel to the dwelling above you.

It too bad you didn't know about the fire code, but it makes perfect sense.

Maybe you could create a sheetrocked & taped box completely around the top & sides (double 5/8" on all sides but the bottom), then installed a new work can, have it inspected, then sheetrock the bottom. That might make it compliant.
 
It's in the building code, the gypsum manual and in the fire stopping catalogs. Boxes and fixtures must be secured to the structure. No opening shall be greater than 16 sq inches and there shall not be more that 100 sq inches in 100 sq feet. Back to back boxes must be separated, horizontally, by 24" and one stud, unless one of the exceptions listed in the building code is met.
 
Welcom to the Forum


A&S Group said:
Dear Forum,
Massachusetts,
I failed an Inspection, I installed 3- 4" old work recessed lights on the 1st floor of a two family house. I failed because I breach the 2 hour fire rating of the ceiling. He's making me build out fire boxes to fire rate these fixtures. Are we allowed to do any old work in multifamily or is this a misinterputation.
What customer will let you build all these fire boxes if they wanted recessed lighting thru-out the house. What is the purpose
of old work?
Click to expand...

I am a bit surprised but then again not by your remarks. Yes of course there is old work but you must use the appropriate methods for the conditions. You would not use romex on the 10 story of a high rise condo would you as most codes prohibit this above 3 stories.

I hope you have not done this type of old work in a fire rated structure in the past. I have presonally seen what can happen. Even if the fire does not spread the smoke will. The smoke can kill someone in the neighboring unit. Same goes for a SFD garage you don't want to penetrate the fire rating as smoke , fire or CO can leak into the house.

LEO2854 said:
Never pull a permit again....:slaphead:


What town is this in and what code section is he citing ?:blink:
Click to expand...


You are joking right. Don't do it right and don't pull the permit.
 
@SierraSparky: (For some reason when I try to reply to your post I get an invalid thread error message)
FWIW some recent studies (Canada?) found that drywall does not provide a very good CO barrier. If the concentration is high or the rest of the house is tight, then plastic (not house wrap) or closed cell foam are better alternatives.

Tapatalk!
 
GoldDigger said:
@SierraSparky: (For some reason when I try to reply to your post I get an invalid thread error message)
FWIW some recent studies (Canada?) found that drywall does not provide a very good CO barrier. If the concentration is high or the rest of the house is tight, then plastic (not house wrap) or closed cell foam are better alternatives.

Tapatalk!
Click to expand...

I guess the system does not like me. :?

Rant too much!:thumbsup:
 
mgookin said:
You penetrated a fire rated assembly and the inspector wants you to maintain the integrity of that rated assembly. He is doing his job. You need to hope there's no fire there between now and when you get that repaired.

For 2-hours you're probably going to need a listed assembly, but you can start at your supply house for off-the-shelf products that may suffice. Make sure you get a cut sheet on the product for the inspector.

If you can't find something on the market, you can refer to the Gypsum Association catalog (it's free) if you go here: http://www.gypsum.org/product/fire-resistance-design-manual-ga-600-12-view-only/
Click to expand...

Yep, that's it right there. Fire separation is required between dwelling units. Just one more thing electricians need to educate themselves on. Not everything is in the electrical code and you have to change with the times instead of looking for technicalities as to why your installation is not wrong even though it is.
 
ivsenroute said:
Yep, that's it right there. Fire separation is required between dwelling units. Just one more thing electricians need to educate themselves on. Not everything is in the electrical code and you have to change with the times instead of looking for technicalities as to why your installation is not wrong even though it is.
Click to expand...


How true!
 
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