Fan rated boxes

[frankft2000]

The wording in the previous code allowed for the use of a standard fan box as long as the fan was hung independently from the box. A 2x6 behind the box and you are good to go. I use 3" screws thru the bracket to the wood behind the box. This new ruling does not seem to support that if you use a 3 wire cable but does support it with a 2 wire cable.

I agree with what you wrote, but splitting hairs here. Would the Arlington brand fan rated boxes still be legal, since the mounting screws don't actually tie into the box, rather they just pass through to get to the building structure?

 

[infinity]

I believe that was covered.

Yes you did cover it. Sorry about that.

 

[GeorgeB]

Last night a friend called and asked if I would help him put in a ceiling fan. I told him that the issue wasn't so much the fan, but the box.

When he asked why we couldn't just use the existing box at first I got short with him and said the reason was because the code prohibits it and that was that.

I think that it has been covered later in the thread, but there is no requirement for a fan rated box UNLESS the box is the means of support. I've had fans put in 2 older homes where the electrician supported the fan from building structure with (one case long lag screws, one case an eye bolt) and wired from an older box.

Perhaps you can resolve your friend's issue that way?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I agree with what you wrote, but splitting hairs here. Would the Arlington brand fan rated boxes still be legal, since the mounting screws don't actually tie into the box, rather they just pass through to get to the building structure?

That is a fan rated box and there is no way to mount the fan without fastening to the wood. If you use a metal octagon a home owner could come by and hook the fan to the box and not use screws into the wood. We seem to be more into design each code cycle. The "what if" syndrome.

 

[K8MHZ]

I think that it has been covered later in the thread, but there is no requirement for a fan rated box UNLESS the box is the means of support. I've had fans put in 2 older homes where the electrician supported the fan from building structure with (one case long lag screws, one case an eye bolt) and wired from an older box.

Perhaps you can resolve your friend's issue that way?

I am not a cobbler. I do it right or don't do it at all. I am not saying that your suggestion wouldn't work, but why not just take out the old box and put in a fan box? The reason is going to either be lack of funds or not wanting to wait to get a fan box from town. Neither of which justifies any attempt at trying to skirt the rules.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

The original Hunter fans had to have wood behind the box as the dang fan weighed a ton. We had to screw a hooked lag screw into the wood to support the rubber pin bracket.

 

[infinity]

I am not a cobbler. I do it right or don't do it at all. I am not saying that your suggestion wouldn't work, but why not just take out the old box and put in a fan box? The reason is going to either be lack of funds or not wanting to wait to get a fan box from town. Neither of which justifies any attempt at trying to skirt the rules.

I don't see it as skirting the rules when the NEC specifically says that independent support of the fan does not require a fan box. Many times it just makes it easier to leave the old box in place.

 

[K8MHZ]

I don't see it as skirting the rules when the NEC specifically says that independent support of the fan does not require a fan box. Many times it just makes it easier to leave the old box in place.

The fan he has, like most, mount to the box. I don't think independent support is in the instructions, but when I see the fan I'll check just to be sure.

And even if it were, who gets to build something to support the fan from? Usually the boxes are in between studs and hung with a piece of furring strip.

The easiest way to assure safety and compliance is to demo the old box and put in the kind with spreaders. If we are replacing a pancake box nailed to the bottom of a stud things get trickier. Hole relocation is usually the only option.

On edit: I have used saddle boxes that were fan rated to replace pancake boxes. I forgot about them.

 

[Will Wire]

The city that I live in requires that the ceiling box in bedrooms be fan rated even if you run a single switch to it. They have required this for years. I thought that it was because of an earlier NEC requirement.

I know of two ceiling fans that have fallen because of improper installations. One was in the dinning room and fell just before dinner clearing the table. When I got to the lady's house she said that her husband had installed the fan. She also said that the wobbling had been getting worse for weeks.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I never had a fan fall from my installation. I did however have a fan fall because the bracket the holds the fan up broke-- metal fatigue, I guess. It just gave way.

I also had a very cheap fan in my 2nd floor family room. I got back from vacation-- the fan was not on -- and one blade was laying on the floor snapped at the fan blade bracket. I touched the next blade on the fan and it snap and on til all 4 fan blade brackets snapped.

 

[kwired]

That is correct. Not sure why anyone would run a 3 wire cable to a ceiling box and not install a fan box..

For control of two loads - does not have to be a fan. How about a 2 circuit lighting track?

I got hit by the inspector once for not having a fan box in a dining room and one of the bedrooms, so from now on I dont think twice I install fan boxes in every room(excluding bathrms and closets) that way if the HO decides to install a fan or a large light fixture it will be safe to do so.

That install was compliant unless you have local amendments requiring fan box.

The fan he has, like most, mount to the box. I don't think independent support is in the instructions, but when I see the fan I'll check just to be sure.

And even if it were, who gets to build something to support the fan from? Usually the boxes are in between studs and hung with a piece of furring strip.

The easiest way to assure safety and compliance is to demo the old box and put in the kind with spreaders. If we are replacing a pancake box nailed to the bottom of a stud things get trickier. Hole relocation is usually the only option.

On edit: I have used saddle boxes that were fan rated to replace pancake boxes. I forgot about them.

For years many fans have included with hardware some wood screws. The reason for these is to mount to something other than the outlet box.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

For control of two loads - does not have to be a fan. How about a 2 circuit lighting track?

Yes, I thought about that but the code makes no exception. Generally I would run a 3 wire cable and not use a box for track lights. I dislike the look with the canopy- it is much cleaner directly wired.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Our city code requires fan boxes for all dwelling unit ceiling boxes that are 3 or more feet from the closest wall.

 

[readydave8]

I've seen fansthat fell and put a hole in the floor

And I've seen fans come loose from box supported by wiring

And once a customer asked me to look at a wobbly fan, I thought o no, balance kit time. But it had come loose from box and was hanging by wiring.

And he was still using it.

 

[jaylectricity]

And I've seen fans come loose from box supported by wiring

And once a customer asked me to look at a wobbly fan, I thought o no, balance kit time. But it had come loose from box and was hanging by wiring.

And he was still using it.

Wow, and I was just having stern words with my girlfriend for her idea to put a coat hook on the bathroom door, tie the cord to her hair dryer in a knot and hang it on the coat hook by the knot.

 

[jmellc]

I agree with what you wrote, but splitting hairs here. Would the Arlington brand fan rated boxes still be legal, since the mounting screws don't actually tie into the box, rather they just pass through to get to the building structure?

It would have to be mounted so that the screws on both sides go into a joist or cross piece.

 

[jmellc]

I am not a cobbler. I do it right or don't do it at all. I am not saying that your suggestion wouldn't work, but why not just take out the old box and put in a fan box? The reason is going to either be lack of funds or not wanting to wait to get a fan box from town. Neither of which justifies any attempt at trying to skirt the rules.

How is that "skirting the rules"? Code specifies either a fan rated box or independent support from structure. If support is there, that is much easier than a new box, especially if you have multiple cables in & out to deal with. 2 long screws into structure is just as solid as 2 screws to the box. Why make things harder & more costly than need be?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I got a call for a loose fan hanging by the wires. It was installed with a pop in round box and was up there for years.

 

[tkb]

That is a code change for 2011. 314.27 (C) It says to the effect if you have a ceiling box that has more than one switch leg in it then the box must be rated for a fan.

Sounds like another case where the NEC has become a design manual.
This provides for a "what if" and contradicts 90.1(B)

 

[jmellc]

I got a call for a loose fan hanging by the wires. It was installed with a pop in round box and was up there for years.

I've seen a couple of those, from kids trying to hang by the fan, as told by the parents.

Amazingly, I have seen a lot of fans that had been hung on light boxes and stayed solid. The old boxes installed on solid metal brackets from about the 1950's are very sturdy, but I change the box or secure fan to structure.