FAQ: Hydromassage Bathtubs

[George Stolz]

Someone recently PM'ed me about the bit I wrote about Hydromassage Bathtubs in the FAQ, asking if I should update it.

I'm not sure if I should pull it, revise it, or leave it. I had been under the impression that bonding the supply pipes went out the window in the 2005, since they are not in contact with the circulating water. Recently, others have offered a different opinion, which is equally valid.

I want to run a poll and see what the results are.

 

[mdshunk]

I want to run a poll and see what the results are.

I want to run my own poll, inquiring about who might be the best person to draft FAQ's, and another asking if FAQ's are even meritorious.

 

[George Stolz]

Go for it.

 

[M. D.]

George shouldn't you be asking if it should be updated ?? Like to include this link

http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=90265&highlight=680.74

 

[George Stolz]

Well, if that's all ya meant, you should have included the link. I don't need a poll to tell me to do that.

Still curious what people believe this section requires, though - participation is appreciated. I put it in about the same time the opposing view first spoke up, so I'd like to see where the chips fall on this issue, in it's simplest terms.

 

[Inspectorcliff]

Well here is my neck on the chopping block....

Well here is my neck on the chopping block....

I know what 680.74 reads, and I figure that the water gets into the tub, via the metal piping and in close proximities, there fore, if the house is plumbed in metallic water pipe, I say yes bond it.

 

[George Stolz]

Bump for poll.

 

[infinity]

I know what 680.74 reads, and I figure that the water gets into the tub, via the metal piping and in close proximities, there fore, if the house is plumbed in metallic water pipe, I say yes bond it.

Bonding it is fine but how do you see this as a requirement?

 

[iwire]

I want to run my own poll, inquiring about who might be the best person to draft FAQ's, and another asking if FAQ's are even meritorious.

:roll:

Why do you have to be like that?

It happens George was 'volunteered' for the job and spent a lot of time behind the scenes trying to put it together. He used all the moderators as proof readers for a long time before it ever became public.

So.....if you feel you can do better, feel free.

If you want to ignore it, feel free.

But you should not be giving George a hard time for trying to do something helpful.



Personally I think he did a great job.

 

[iwire]

Recently, others have offered a different opinion, which is equally valid.

Well, what is that other opinion?

I can not see anyway the the current 2005 NEC wording requires the supply pipes to bonded to the rest of the unit unless they are in contact with the circulating water during use of the tub.

 

[George Stolz]

Well, what is that other opinion?

Chris brought it up in this post and this one a while back.

Grammatically speaking, I think that the lack of any commas in 680.74 (where it counts) leaves two valid interpretations. The research I did on having a "lack of commas" to see what it meant applying Charlie's Rule left me empty-handed. All the info I could find was how to use commas effectively, not what a sentence means when it lacks key ones.

In Chris' second post I linked to, he makes a good point, that others have echoed: If a tub comes out as a complete unit, then why isn't it clearer that this requirement is directed at manufacturers, since they would be the ones doing this bonding? Wouldn't it be taken care of without the NEC's intervention?

Although, on the other hand, there are a good deal of requirements that are exclusively taken care of by the factory, so...

In the past I've scrutinized the ROP/ROC leading to 2005's 680.74, and was left empty-handed with either perspective, really.

I appreciate all votes in the poll, keep 'em coming.

 

[iwire]

Chris brought it up

Like here?

Actually George,

680.74 requires "All metal piping systems and all grounded metal parts in contact with the circulating water shall be bonded together....".

So, as I read this section the supply pipes don't have to be in contact with the circulating water, if they are metal and we have grounded metal parts that are in contact with the circulating water then those items must be bonded together.

I can not agree that includes the supply.

If we do read it that way where does it end?

If we read it that way we will have to bond any and all metal piping that ever contacted the water all the way back to the well point or intake pipe at the water department.

The other question that comes up is this.

If they meant all metal piping why did they choose to specify 'in contact with the circulating water'?

Also notice that it says in contact, not was in contact.

I just don't see it at all.

 

[infinity]

Like here?



I can not agree that includes the supply.

If we do read it that way where does it end?

If we read it that way we will have to bond any and all metal piping that ever contacted the water all the way back to the well point or intake pipe at the water department.

The other question that comes up is this.

If they meant all metal piping why did they choose to specify 'in contact with the circulating water'?

Also notice that it says in contact, not was in contact.

I just don't see it at all.

I agree, it's rather clearly written. Is my metal piping system out in the attached garage for my compressor required to be connected to the tub on the second floor? That would be a ridiculous interpretation of "all metal piping systems".

 

[M. D.]

It is now being taught that the supply side piping be bonded. I have seen more than one test question regarding this , took one myself for continuing ed. credit . got it wrong when I chose the answer that did not contain bonding the supply. Test could be wrong ,.. point is we learn from mistakes , The IAEA has a great slide and illustration showing the supply bonded . (slide can be seen here)http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthrea...ghlight=680.74

The code panel also agrees in principle with this guy .The first sentance of what they accept in principle reads in part

"All metal piping systems supplying hydromassage bathtubs...."

I wish they left it in .I am no english major but I bond them because that is the way I read it, I have asked my wife her opinion on the language , a teacher with a masters degree in education , she thinks they are two things (1)metal piping and (2) grounded metal parts in contact with the ciculating water, that must be joined. And also it is traditional , it was what I saw and coppied.

Submitter:
Michael J. Johnston, Plano, TX​

Recommendation:​

Revise text to read as follows:
680.74 Bonding. All metal piping systems supplying hydromassage bathtubs,
including metal piping and all grounded metal parts in contact with the
circulating water, shall be bonded together using a copper bonding jumper,
insulated, covered, or bare, not smaller than 8 AWG solid. The bonding jumper
shall terminate at the pump motor on a terminal for this purpose.
FPN: The 8 AWG or larger solid copper bonding conductor shall not be
required to be extended or attached to any remote panelboard, service
equipment, or any electrode.​

Substantiation:​

The proposed revision is for clarification purposes. There
continues to be considerable confusion and inconsistency in how this
requirement is being applied in the field. The common practices currently
include bonding the hot and cold water piping supplying the tub to the terminal
lug on the pump motor (other than double insulated types). The current text is
being viewed and interpreted by some as only requiring ?metal piping systems
and grounded metal parts in contact with the circulation water? to be bonded.
The piping for the circulation water of a hydromassage tub is typically
nonmetallic. The questions arise as to the requirement for bonding the hot and
cold water supply piping system that is connected to the tub. If the objective is
to place all metal piping and metal parts such as faucets and valves associated
with the hydromassage tub at the same equipotential plane, then the Code
should clearly require that, and not leave users with any question as to what is
required to be bonded and where the bonding jumper is required to be
connected. The proposed FPN is the same one that follows 680.26 to help
clarify that this bonding conductor does not have to be routed to a panelboard
or service equipment or grounding electrode.
Note: Supporting material is available for review at NFPA Headquarters.​

Panel Meeting Action: Accept in Principle
Panel Statement:​

See panel action on Proposal 17-166.​

Number Eligible to Vote: 11
Ballot Results:​

Affirmative: 11
​

 

[George Stolz]

If we do read it that way where does it end?

That's the flaw in that interpretation of this section, at least the one that rings strongest with me.

On the flipside, if equipotential bonding is the goal, then it's woefully incomplete if the supply pipes are excluded. But, then again, it's still woefully incomplete without a requirement to bond other metallic things in the area too.

The code panel also agrees in principle with this guy .The first sentance of what they accept in principle reads in part

"All metal piping systems supplying hydromassage bathtubs...."

Ahh, but the most visible aspect of the requirement is the inclusion of the 680.26 FPN language specifying that the bonding conductor definitely does not have to go back to a remote panelboard. They did not clearly address the supply pipes head-on, they were all over the remote panelboard aspect of the problem, IIRC.

 

[M. D.]

I have been on both sides of this issue can in fact see it both ways . I choose to bond the metal supply piping.

this is a copy of the test question I referred to

JADE Learning is an approved continuing education provider in Alaska, Arkansas, Florida, Idaho, Maine, Montana, New Hampshire, New Mexico, North Carolina, Oregon, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Vermont, Washington, Wisconsin, and Wyoming.

Question 274.
Which of the following components of a hydromassage tub are required to be bonded together by a #8 AWG copper conductor?
A: Internal non-current carrying metal components of a listed double-insulated hydromassage pump
B: Metal piping on the tub that is in contact with circulating water
C: Metal piping that supplies water to the tub
D: Both b & c are correct

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Choice B is incorrect

(d) is correct. The change in article 680.74 omitted the requirement for bonding internal components of listed double-insulated hydromassage pumps because this would violate the listing of the pump.

Please continue on to the next question. You may review this question by going to the main menu

 

[George Stolz]

Would you like to see a copy of my renewal test that had three correct answers and one false one? Which should I pick in that scenario?

(Although, to my chagrin, I didn't notice and picked the first right answer I found - for which my boss (a fellow member of this forum) rightfully mocked me. )