Federal Employee

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fbhwt

fbhwt

Electrical Systems Inspector
Location
Spotsylvania,Virginia
Occupation
Electrical Systems Inspector
I am sure there are a few people here that work for the federal government, since I started some three years ago from day one I noticed that alot of the people doing electrical work including contractors just do not know what they are doing. The other day I was called to a location where a contractor had install a tankless hot water heater, I call them insta-hot's. I was told that the breaker was tripping/would not reset, I went to newly installed 100a panel and noticed that the 20a 2p breaker was tripped, went to the bathroom where the water heater is installed under the sink and on the cover it says: 240v 11.5kw, I removed the cover and saw 12awg feeding the hot water heater. Have any other federal employees here come accross similar things like this that a contractor has done? The other day a co-worker used an equipment ground for a neutral to get 120v for a receptacle at a piece of equipment that was 208v single phase, I blew my top when he said "well it worked didn't it".
 
Unfortunately all too often there are incompetent people doing electrical work. An instant hot or tankless water heater that is electric should have been a clue as they generally need a much larger capacity then a standard water heater. Some of them require 100 amps depending on how much area they are serving.

Ask most electrician what a ground rod is for. Way too often I get a response like it is there in case of a neutral failure. Perhaps it will help if there is city water and copper pipes but that is not the purpose of the electrodes.
 
This has potential (no pun intended) to get very political so I'll just say one sentence. In government there are other factors other than qualifications which result in hiring.
 
mgookin said:
This has potential (no pun intended) to get very political so I'll just say one sentence. In government there are other factors other than qualifications which result in hiring.
Click to expand...

one of the problems is the whole process of how government work is contracted out. The people involved are often otherwise clueless bureaucrats and only know how to fill out the correct forms in the right way.

they are very good at navigating the maze of the bureaucracy but little else.
 
fbhwt said:
I was called to a location where a contractor had install a tankless hot water heater, I call them insta-hot's. I was told that the breaker was tripping/would not reset, I went to newly installed 100a panel and noticed that the 20a 2p breaker was tripped, went to the bathroom where the water heater is installed under the sink and on the cover it says: 240v 11.5kw, I removed the cover and saw 12awg feeding the hot water heater.
Click to expand...

Dennis Alwon said:
An instant hot or tankless water heater that is electric should have been a clue as they generally need a much larger capacity then a standard water heater. Some of them require 100 amps depending on how much area they are serving.
Click to expand...

They do make a tankless water heater for a single sink in a bathroom with a very low current draw.

My guess is that they had installed one of these small heaters before and just assumed this was the same thing.

I would check the job order and see just what this EC was contracted to install. The price for an 11.5 KW unit would have been much higher than for a small single sink unit. The EC may never have seen the actual unit ( in some areas the plumbers are allowed to do the hook-up).
 
A/A Fuel GTX said:
I always wondered why many government jobs are exempt from local inspections.
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There are people within that are suppose oversee these projects that are just as unqualified as the people doing the work, had a contractor install standby generator, 200a transfer switch outside, enclousure was type 1, drawings even showed nema 3R, it would still be there today if I hadn't point it out to a person involved with the project.
 
growler said:
They do make a tankless water heater for a single sink in a bathroom with a very low current draw.

My guess is that they had installed one of these small heaters before and just assumed this was the same thing.

I would check the job order and see just what this EC was contracted to install. The price for an 11.5 KW unit would have been much higher than for a small single sink unit. The EC may never have seen the actual unit ( in some areas the plumbers are allowed to do the hook-up).
Click to expand...

One major problem is people's confusion between the "instant hot water heaters" of which I believe Insta-Hot is one trademark, and tankless heaters.
The former actually do have a tank, just very small ranging from less than a quart to as large as a gallon and are more properly called point of use heaters. The ones for kitchen use have thermostats which can be set as hot as 200+F to be used for instant hot drinks or tea. They may draw as little as 10A 120V and require a recovery time of 5 minutes or more after use.
True tankless units are not necessarily located near the point of use and have a high enough heat input to keep up with a design flow rate.
The British "geyser" for shower or bath use falls into thus category and is sometimes mounted, controls and all, inside a shower stall.

Tapatalk!
 
fbhwt said:
I am sure there are a few people here that work for the federal government, since I started some three years ago from day one I noticed that alot of the people doing electrical work including contractors just do not know what they are doing. The other day I was called to a location where a contractor had install a tankless hot water heater, I call them insta-hot's. I was told that the breaker was tripping/would not reset, I went to newly installed 100a panel and noticed that the 20a 2p breaker was tripped, went to the bathroom where the water heater is installed under the sink and on the cover it says: 240v 11.5kw, I removed the cover and saw 12awg feeding the hot water heater. Have any other federal employees here come accross similar things like this that a contractor has done? The other day a co-worker used an equipment ground for a neutral to get 120v for a receptacle at a piece of equipment that was 208v single phase, I blew my top when he said "well it worked didn't it".
Click to expand...
Not saying there is no problems with government operations, but can also see this as likely not the fault of any government employee or activity. A contractor or designer likely dropped the ball on this one and didn't specify the correct thing to connect this unit with. The installer plain didn't care even if he noticed something wasn't right and said nothing all he cares is that he gets a paycheck at the end of the week or every two weeks or whatever - then you end up with an installation that really doesn't work for the end user.
 
Hello,
I have seen incompetent electricians, inspectors, and engineers at all levels of government, and private institutions. This is not just a government issue it happens at all levels, it is unfortunate that this happens but that "Good O'le Buddy" way of thinking blurs the lines of right or wrong. I have seen more then once, that the incompetent person is promoted to greater level of authority and reasonability. It's a bummer but it does happen.


Regards,
PJHolguin :cool:



fbhwt said:
I am sure there are a few people here that work for the federal government, since I started some three years ago from day one I noticed that alot of the people doing electrical work including contractors just do not know what they are doing. The other day I was called to a location where a contractor had install a tankless hot water heater, I call them insta-hot's. I was told that the breaker was tripping/would not reset, I went to newly installed 100a panel and noticed that the 20a 2p breaker was tripped, went to the bathroom where the water heater is installed under the sink and on the cover it says: 240v 11.5kw, I removed the cover and saw 12awg feeding the hot water heater. Have any other federal employees here come accross similar things like this that a contractor has done? The other day a co-worker used an equipment ground for a neutral to get 120v for a receptacle at a piece of equipment that was 208v single phase, I blew my top when he said "well it worked didn't it".
Click to expand...
 
Lectricbota said:
In government qualifications are NOT a requirement way too often.
Click to expand...

there are federal jobs you can bid on that don't require a contractors license.

i bid one changing out access control in a federal prison. no license required.
i worked out a bid probably lower than i should have, to find someone else
bid it at 60% of my number, and i was 2nd bidder on that one. and my number
was in the weeds.

to the winning bid, you who are about to die, i salute you....... :lol:
 
I see many different questions/answers posed here:

The competency of federal electricians.

The competency of federal contractors.

The competency of federal inspections.

The competency of federal bidding.

Which particular one are we discussing or all of them at once?
 
General Electrical Forum

General Electrical Forum

jumper said:
I see many different questions/answers posed here:

The competency of federal electricians.

The competency of federal contractors.

The competency of federal inspections.

The competency of federal bidding.

Which particular one are we discussing or all of them at once?
Click to expand...


I posted to the General Electrical forum because I thought the question I asked fit this forum best, although the specifics you mentioned may be best answered in a different forum I think they all fall into the same basket.
 
jumper said:
I see many different questions/answers posed here:

The competency of federal electricians.

The competency of federal contractors.

The competency of federal inspections.

The competency of federal bidding.

Which particular one are we discussing or all of them at once?
Click to expand...

Seems like we're talking about how all of that is different when it's the federal government compared to private sector work. It's unique for sure.

I just got back from depositing a check for an ACOE job I did last summer. Talk about a long time to get paid!
 
Some win low bids

Some win low bids

I had a contractor install a machine on a gov job, and wired the whole machine in Black Solid 14 thhn one time. It was very hard to get them to change it. It came down to bouncing from OSHA to NFPA 70 rules to get them to replace it, NEC meant nothing. It was about a 1000 wires and 10-100 ft runs. End result was they had never wired a machine tool before
 
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