Federal Employee

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I had a contractor install a machine on a gov job, and wired the whole machine in Black Solid 14 thhn one time. It was very hard to get them to change it. It came down to bouncing from OSHA to NFPA 70 rules to get them to replace it, NEC meant nothing. It was about a 1000 wires and 10-100 ft runs. End result was they had never wired a machine tool before
Did they at least use some numbers or other marking scheme?
 

iceworm

Curmudgeon still using printed IEEE Color Books
Location
North of the 65 parallel
Occupation
EE (Field - as little design as possible)
I had a contractor install a machine on a gov job, and wired the whole machine in Black Solid 14 thhn one time. It was very hard to get them to change it. It came down to bouncing from OSHA to NFPA 70 rules to get them to replace it, NEC meant nothing. It was about a 1000 wires and 10-100 ft runs. End result was they had never wired a machine tool before
Machine internal wiring? Or external connections to peripheral devices?

Educate me a bit:
If internal:
What was it you found in osha or NFPA 70 that required the change?
What was it you had them change to?

If external:
What is required other than white/natural gray neutrals, green/green stripe neutrals (oh, and high-leg orange)

Did they at least use some numbers or other marking scheme?
Yes, regulatory or not, very important.
I've spent most of my career troubleshooting production machinery. Plenty are wired in the same color - sis gray, or white are favorites. All were addressed. Some like reverse addressing. Either works. External connections will pay attention to required NEC color coding (as noted above)

Can't say I've ever seen solid used - but not a regulatory issue.

ice
 

just the cowboy

Inactive, Email Never Verified
Location
newburgh,ny
Machine internal wiring? Or external connections to peripheral devices?

Educate me a bit:
If internal:
What was it you found in osha or NFPA 70 that required the change?
What was it you had them change to?

If external:
What is required other than white/natural gray neutrals, green/green stripe neutrals (oh, and high-leg orange)


It was internal wiring to an automated sandblaster.
It was a fed Gov. job and it was not in the contract to use stranded, but the contract said it will conform to all OSHA req.

OSHA states machine tools shall conform to NFPA 70E
NFPA 70E says someware that machine tools SHALL be wires with stranded wire. It also states that control wires SHOULD be Red.

That was what we had them put in. RED THHN #14 stranded
 
Last edited:

cowboyjwc

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Simi Valley, CA
Are you saying you have inspected Fed Gov projects?
Nope the states as high as I've gotten and then it was just a phone call telling me that I needed to release a meter, because the utility wouldn't release it without my approval. I had no idea what they were talking about. Oh we put some lights under a freeway overpass and a new meter pedestal. Yeah.... that's not gonna happen since I didn't look at any of it. Have a nice day.
 

iceworm

Curmudgeon still using printed IEEE Color Books
Location
North of the 65 parallel
Occupation
EE (Field - as little design as possible)
... It was internal wiring to an automated sandblaster.
It was a fed Gov. job and it was not in the contract to use stranded, but the contract said it will conform to all OSHA req.
Okay, that's good

OSHA states machine tools shall conform to NFPA 70E
NFPA 70E says someware that machine tools SHALL be wires with stranded wire. It also states that control wires SHOULD be Red.

That was what we had them put in. RED THHN #14 stranded
Maybe you could save me some time:
Where in OSHA regs does it say, "machine tools shall conform to NFPA 70E"? I don't recall that anywhere.

Can you give me the NFPA 70E reference that discusses construction of machine tools? I don't recall that anywhere.

NFPA 79 deals with machine tools. Perhaps you meant that. If so, does OSHA incorporate NFPA 79 by reference? I don't recall that. And I hope it doesn't. Plenty of machine tools are built to standards to other than NFPA 79 and are just fine.

I'm asking because I'm involved in building an occasional custom control panel. NFPA 70E is never a concern. Currently I am using NEC 409, selected portions of UL508A, and a few state regulation mandated extras. I could possibly use NFPA 79 as a secondary reference - but rarely. And I never use thhn or red. It will all be MTW (what ever color - probably mostly black) or sis gray. THHN is way too stiff. Both the internal conductors and external connections are addressed.

If I'm goofed up here (concerning the standards I'm using), both the local AHJ rep and me are clear screwed up and need to get researching. Help me out.

ice
 

just the cowboy

Inactive, Email Never Verified
Location
newburgh,ny
It's been awhile so I can't give you any real help, and it was probaly 79.
But it was in the OSHA regs because it forced them to replace it.

AMW or MTW is better than THHN for panels but I don't use it for field wiring.
As in original post stranded SHALL be used, red SHOULD be used
Sorry I can't help more.
 

iceworm

Curmudgeon still using printed IEEE Color Books
Location
North of the 65 parallel
Occupation
EE (Field - as little design as possible)
It's been awhile so I can't give you any real help, and it was probaly 79.
But it was in the OSHA regs because it forced them to replace it.

AMW or MTW is better than THHN for panels but I don't use it for field wiring.
As in original post stranded SHALL be used, red SHOULD be used
Sorry I can't help more.
Me too. I'll have to look it up. If in fact osha is mandating machine control panels are built to NFPA 79 - that is a major shift.

Stranded is not an issue, because that is the norm anyway.

Color is not an issue - if for no other reason that NFPA 79 does not say red for control circuits is prefered.
13.2.4.3 Where color-coding is used for identification of conductors, the following color codes shall be permitted to be used:

(1) BLACK for ungrounded ac and dc power conductors​
(2) RED for ungrounded ac control conductors
(3) BLUE for ungrounded dc control conductors

The issue is: What exactly is the regulatory spec?

ice
 
I am an electronic technician for the United States Postal Service, which is a Federal employer, and is also unionized. When I took the entrance exam twenty or so years ago, you had to have training and experience in the electronic field or real lucky to pass the exam to be qualify to be hired on. Now the qualifying exam test a person ability to be trained, no electronic question on exam. Management does post a qualifying school that a new hiree has to pass in order to maintain the job and if the hiree is not sent to his/her qualifying school with in twelve months it is an automatic hire. Management drops the ball and does not sent new hires to school with in twelve months so they are shew ins and when they finally go to school they fail the course, but still get to keep their job. We have techs that do not how to meter check a simple switch, or a fuse, can't use a ratchet, let alone troubleshoot a motor control problem. Now management wants me to train them. I say no way I do not feel safe working around these employees, but have to do their jobs because they cannot do it. There are employees that sleep all night and management allows it because they can't fix anything and are useless. I know am blowing a lot of steam off here, but to cut it short, the Post Office is paying three people to do the job of one, because of the Union rules it takes an Act of Congress to fire these people and when management has the opportunity to fire them they drop the ball. That is why I obtained my electrical license to get away from that place.

spguidry
 
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