Federal Pacific Electric Panel/ 120/240 residential---Question

Status
Not open for further replies.
C

champion

Member
Location
St. Louis Missouri, US
A customer was told that her Federal Pacific Panel installed in her dwelling which is 100amp service was ok due the the breakers installed in it were manufactured by challenger.
The actual breakers installed look like federal pacific breakers except the end of the handle that reflects the amp rating of the breakers are colored white instead of red.

I did not know what to tell her and have never heard of this until now.
Can anyone shed any light on this issue?

I read some time ago the issue was not necessarily the breakers but the design of the panel phase legs themselves and the history behind the listing.

Thank you in advance

Jim
JC Electric
 
I did a little searching around the internet on the subject. Challenger apparently bought the rights to make the FPE breakers right before Cutler-Hammer bought them. Couldn't find a single electrician who thought the Challenger labelled breakers were any safer than the original breakers. Quite a few mentioned the buss bar was still a problem. Offer to sell her a panel replacement. If she doesn't want one, offer to refer her to a fire insurance company.
 
Coppersmith said:
I did a little searching around the internet on the subject. Challenger apparently bought the rights to make the FPE breakers right before Cutler-Hammer bought them. Couldn't find a single electrician who thought the Challenger labelled breakers were any safer than the original breakers. Quite a few mentioned the buss bar was still a problem. Offer to sell her a panel replacement. If she doesn't want one, offer to refer her to a fire insurance company.
Click to expand...
That right there can be a problem, if you can't insure the place because it has a FPE panel you don't have much choice but to change it. I don't know how often insurance companies may reject FPE panels but can imagine some don't want anything to do with covering a structure with those installed.
 
kwired said:
I don't know how often insurance companies may reject FPE panels but can imagine some don't want anything to do with covering a structure with those installed.
Click to expand...

Most of the calls I get about changing FPE (and Sylvania) panels are due to an insurance company requiring a panel change before they will insure.
 
Coppersmith said:
Most of the calls I get about changing FPE (and Sylvania) panels are due to an insurance company requiring a panel change before they will insure.
Click to expand...
I don't run into them all that often, but there are still some around these parts. A lot of QO was installed in the 70's and 80's here but some FPE's pop up here and there.
 
I would say:

-That's BS that having Challenger replacement breakers makes it all okay. Prove to me that the breaker design is actually different.
-To my knowledge the issue with FPE is both that the breakers may not trip and that the busbar design may be bad.
-I would guess we're talking about the difference between a 1 in 10,000 chance of a fire with FPE vs 1 in a million chance with newer designs, or something like that. I've seen too many FPE's that never caught on fire to worry a whole heck of a lot about it. I just hate having to worry about the liability.
 
The breakers, particularly the 2p ones, were the main problem. The common trip mechanism would jam, and once reset, would never trip again. The failure rate is extraordinarily high; FPE have been called "welding panels" by more than a few electricians.

Here's a video of a 2p 60A FPE Stab Lock breaker carrying a 140+A load for 4+ minutes until it fails:

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/loca...gation-Finds-Decades-of-Danger-171406921.html

The second problem is that the deadfront has to be adjusted correctly to retain the breakers properly.

I do not know if the Challenger replacements have a proper UL listing.

UBI makes breakers for Stab Lock panels that are sold at BB stores. I can only guess that they are proper, given the amount of scrutiny FPE has gone thru, and the potential liability for making new breakers for FPE panels.
 
I could be wrong but I thought they once had their product listed. But the listing issue came about when they changed something and never had it re-evaluated for listing purposes. The bus connection design though not the greatest one out there was likely listed.
 
kwired said:
I don't run into them all that often, but there are still some around these parts. A lot of QO was installed in the 70's and 80's here but some FPE's pop up here and there.
Click to expand...

When we bought our current home our insurance company wouldn't underwrite us until the panel was replaced. Fortunately for us this happened before closing so it was on the seller. It was a 100 amp panel. I offered to pay the difference if they would up it to 200 amps but they wouldn't go for it.

My parents' home, built in 1960, still has the original FPE panel with Stab-Lok breakers. So far, so good.
 
gadfly56 said:
When we bought our current home our insurance company wouldn't underwrite us until the panel was replaced. Fortunately for us this happened before closing so it was on the seller. It was a 100 amp panel. I offered to pay the difference if they would up it to 200 amps but they wouldn't go for it.

My parents' home, built in 1960, still has the original FPE panel with Stab-Lok breakers. So far, so good.
Click to expand...
So why didn't they just take the changeout estimate off the purchase price and let you upgrade it after you acquired it?

Or was it more of an insurance issue that you still have a period where it may not be covered?
 
kwired said:
So why didn't they just take the changeout estimate off the purchase price and let you upgrade it after you acquired it?

Or was it more of an insurance issue that you still have a period where it may not be covered?
Click to expand...

That right there. The house is a ranch with semi-finished basement. I was trying to think ahead to a possible second level in the future and run the sub-panel for the addition from the upgraded panel.
 
gadfly56 said:
That right there. The house is a ranch with semi-finished basement. I was trying to think ahead to a possible second level in the future and run the sub-panel for the addition from the upgraded panel.
Click to expand...
My thoughts is to find insurer that will at least give you six months to get it replaced and tell the first company where to go if they can't do that, higher premium until it is changed would be understandable.

Insurance industry is legalized crime anymore, though as a general rule home and auto policies are not the worst ones.
 
kwired said:
My thoughts is to find insurer that will at least give you six months to get it replaced and tell the first company where to go if they can't do that, higher premium until it is changed would be understandable.

Insurance industry is legalized crime anymore, though as a general rule home and auto policies are not the worst ones.
Click to expand...

Well, it was 11 years ago and you can't beat NJ Manufacturers on pricing if you qualify. Quickest way to stop an insurance cold call other than hanging up is to say "I have New Jersey Manufacturers. What can you do for me?"
 
Thank you all for feedback

Thank you all for feedback

I want to thank you all for the response.
My suspicions have been confirmed.
I will contact the local municipality and see what they may require regarding the sale and re occupancy for dwellings with FPE panels installed.

I needed the reassurance,
Thanks again
JIm
 
jaggedben said:
I would say:

-That's BS that having Challenger replacement breakers makes it all okay. Prove to me that the breaker design is actually different.
-To my knowledge the issue with FPE is both that the breakers may not trip and that the busbar design may be bad.
-I would guess we're talking about the difference between a 1 in 10,000 chance of a fire with FPE vs 1 in a million chance with newer designs, or something like that. I've seen too many FPE's that never caught on fire to worry a whole heck of a lot about it. I just hate having to worry about the liability.
Click to expand...

Any 60 amp breaker bought today that opens at 81 amps within 2 hours or 180 amps within two minutes or 360 amps within .033 seconds fits the UL Standard that it is listed by, so to say it held for 4 minutes at 140 shouldn't be much concern in my opinion.
I am an electrician not a third party listing agency so I do not put my two cents into my evaluations of an electrical system. I can't honestly say one way to the other the safety of FPE devices.
 
jwelectric said:
Any 60 amp breaker bought today that opens at 81 amps within 2 hours or 180 amps within two minutes or 360 amps within .033 seconds fits the UL Standard that it is listed by, so to say it held for 4 minutes at 140 shouldn't be much concern in my opinion.
I am an electrician not a third party listing agency so I do not put my two cents into my evaluations of an electrical system. I can't honestly say one way to the other the safety of FPE devices.
Click to expand...

Welcome back from me as well. Yeah, 140+A for 4 minutes is a big deal on a 60A breaker when it's smoking. Could you link the UL standard you found for those breakers? The one I found:

http://static.schneider-electric.us...100-400 A Frame FA-LA/FA-FC-FH/0600DB0105.pdf

shows that a breaker should trip within 100 seconds if it sees ~1.4-2x its rated current. For a 60A, that's 84-120A in a minute forty seconds. At nearly 2.5x its rated capacity, trip time should be ~15-55 seconds.
 
JFletcher said:
Welcome back from me as well. Yeah, 140+A for 4 minutes is a big deal on a 60A breaker when it's smoking. Could you link the UL standard you found for those breakers? The one I found:

http://static.schneider-electric.us...100-400 A Frame FA-LA/FA-FC-FH/0600DB0105.pdf

shows that a breaker should trip within 100 seconds if it sees ~1.4-2x its rated current. For a 60A, that's 84-120A in a minute forty seconds. At nearly 2.5x its rated capacity, trip time should be ~15-55 seconds.
Click to expand...
I think manufacturer can have it trip in less time then the listing standard maximum requirements, and most probably do have lesser trip times then they can have and still meet listing.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top