Feed 3 phase with single phase?

[ronaldrc]

Just got a call from one of my customers.

He has an old dry cleaning plant that has two 100 amp. 3 phase 120/208 service both meters are inside. He had his power cut off and now he wants to rent the Bldg. out and the power utility co. want turn it back on since the meters are on the inside of the Bldg.He loss the grandfathering law when he had it cut off and now it is outdated.Now they require the meters to be outside.

He wants me to install a single phase 200 amp. 120/240 volt service since the person renting it will not have any equipment.A simple through the wall service with the meter outside.

My question is, can I legally set 2, 3 pole 100 amp. breakers in the new 200 amp. single phase service panel and feed the exsisting 2, 100 amp. panels and making them sub panels? Or set 2, 2 pole breakers as feeds and tie two of the legs together in the 100 amp. sub. panels?

Ronald

 

[roger]

Re: Feed 3 phase with single phase?

Hey Ronald. I think you would have to go with the two double pole breakers. It would take somebody in the know to understand these buses in the subpanels later.

Roger

 

[bennie]

Re: Feed 3 phase with single phase?

Use the center buss and make the panel left or right handed.

 

[ronaldrc]

Re: Feed 3 phase with single phase?

Both are very good ideas I was really worried about the legal aspects of it.

I agree three pole breakers in a single phase panel would be confusing.And in the sub panel two breakers with no voltage between them might be a miss leading shock hazard.

If I where an inspector that would be required on my part not to jumper two legs together, just leave one unhooked.Good idea now if my inspector will just go alone with that thats the way I will do it.

If its legal to do this I think I'll do what both of you sugested.

I will use 2 pole breakers for feeds and leave the middle leg in both sub panels unhooked I don't need that many circuits anyway.

Thanks:Ronald

 

[tpwd]

Re: Feed 3 phase with single phase?

stop play around with this....answer is NO!..rebuild the service...cheaper and safer anyway...

 

[ronaldrc]

Re: Feed 3 phase with single phase?

Installing new service panels is not cheaper and I don't no that it would be safer, how do you come to that conclusion it has commercial bolt in breakers now if I change it out it will be plug in breakers.

Everyone hasn't got money to burn my friend some inspectors need to learn this.

Ronald

 

[bennie]

Re: Feed 3 phase with single phase?

I agree with tpwd. Panels are not expensive, and you rewind the life expectancy of the equipment.

 

[bennie]

Re: Feed 3 phase with single phase?

Ronald: 3 hours of your time will buy a single phase panel.

 

[ronaldrc]

Re: Feed 3 phase with single phase?

Like I said Bennie everyone don't have money to burn and the old panels have good bolt in type breakers and he want pay the differents between a bolt in and a plug in if he changes them.

I havn't talk to my local inspector yet but I'm sure he will agree with you.I will do what I have to to make it safe but if I can I will use the old panels.

I never did get the answer to the question I ask is it legal to feed a three phase from a single phase?

Ronald

 

[bennie]

Re: Feed 3 phase with single phase?

There can be a case made both ways. I don't know.

This would be a, one ten three, call by the AHJ.

 

[ronaldrc]

Re: Feed 3 phase with single phase?

Sorry about getting a little hot under the collar but I have known this customer for years.

He is not a wealthy person and I want to do the job as reasonable as possible,but I also want to keep it safe.

And when someone come across with a definite no you can't do that without knowing the circumstances it makes me a little hot under the collar.

Ronald

 

[hbendillo]

Re: Feed 3 phase with single phase?

Why don't you just install one 100-amp, 208-volt, three-phase service for the building, set a 100-amp service disconnect, run one feed and then tap off to each panelboard? Would this give you enough power for the new tenant?

 

[ronaldrc]

Re: Feed 3 phase with single phase?

Thats a good idea the owner wanted to go with single phase but this wouldn't be that exspensive.

I'll ask him about it.

Thanks:Ronald

[ April 08, 2003, 05:54 PM: Message edited by: ronaldrc ]

 

[hurk27]

Re: Feed 3 phase with single phase?

Ron another thing to consider is that most buildings that were wired 208/120 will have many of its circuits wired multi-wire and this will mean that for every one you must pull in an extra neutral or you will over load the exsting one. so a 100 amp 3 phase service might not be that bad.

 

[hurk27]

Re: Feed 3 phase with single phase?

He loss the grandfathering law when he had it cut off

I have never heard of this. does this mean that if we dont plate our cars we have to bring them up to todays epa standerd???

or to todays safty standerd???

Dont think so!

Who gives the poco the right to over ride the grandfathering laws?

We had a city here that tried this with apartment buildings. that if a tennet moved out and they had there electric turned off the city tried to make the building owner bring the whole building up to the 2002 code. It didnt take long for that one to wind up in court, and remove the requirment.

[ April 08, 2003, 06:27 PM: Message edited by: hurk27 ]

 

[amptech]

Re: Feed 3 phase with single phase?

hurk, That's the way it is in New Castle, Indiana. If the service is disconnected by the PoCo, it has to be brought up to current code and inspected before a reconnect. This only applies to the service unless the reason for disconnect was fire. In that case the whole electrical system has to be updated and inspected before service is restored. I'm not talking about having a meter pulled and booted. I'm talking about the PoCo cutting the drop.
If the PoCo is Cinergy, they don't have to reconnect after a disconnect if the meterbase isn't considered accessible to their meter reader. Currently they require the meter to be installed on the front or side of the building and not enclosed by any fences. I have seen them refuse service when the meterbase was on the back corner of a new house. The customer/electrician should have read the requirements in the pamphlet when they applied for service.

 

[hurk27]

Re: Feed 3 phase with single phase?

Amptech
I could not imagine. that if I was late on my electrical bill and had my power cut off that I would have to update my electrical.
this kind of dictatorship is what we are fighting now in Iraq.
Could you imagine how much a landlord would have to charge in rent to cover this kind of cost as every tennet will turn off the electric when they move and this cannot be a reasone to make the landlord update the electrical.
I just cant see any legal way a city could enforce this.
of course they do have the power to require a property owner to bring up anything that can be hazardous to life and property, but there is a thin line on what could be determined as a hazard or not. and this would not include anything that passed code at the time of manufacture.

 

[iwire]

Re: Feed 3 phase with single phase?

Here in MA the location of the meter is up to the power company, it has nothing to do with the Cities or Towns.

The power company is a "private" business and if you want to use there service they can certainly tell you where there meter is to be located.

I just ran into this on a addition to a building the meter was located in a mechanical room and I had to move it outside for the POCO to sign off on a upgrade from 400 amp to 800 amp service.

 

[hurk27]

Re: Feed 3 phase with single phase?

Iwire
I can understand on a new instalation, upgrade, or when the service has to be replaced for what ever reason.
But what I can not accept is when somthing is exsisting and has not been changed or upgraded in any way. this would fall under the grandfather laws. and just because you had your power turned off is not a excuse to make you upgrade the electric even the relocation of an exsisting meter location unless of course the power company wants to foot the bill.
even the EPA,NTSC dont have that kind of power. or we couldn't even afford to have a tune up done on a car if they could require us to upgrade the entire car to the latest standered!

I'm not trying to sound harsh, as you can see this is a pet-peve of mine, there are many eldrly on fixed incomes out there that can't afford to have this kind of work done and end up being out on the street because of this kind of thinking. it is just not right!
Like I said before I know there is sometimes that there exsist a dangerous condition that does need fast attention. but this is not it.

[ April 08, 2003, 09:06 PM: Message edited by: hurk27 ]

 

[ronaldrc]

Re: Feed 3 phase with single phase?

Well I was sorta sorry after I made this post with one of the answers I got.

But now I'm glad because it has made me and others think very hard about it.

The grand father law has always had it flaws.
But we do change the way we do things and if the old way isn't dangerous why not wait for a convenient time to change or correct the problem speaking of the meters being inside instead of out.

My main question was would it be legal to feed a three phase with a single phase.

I have come to the conclusion it should not be legal.

The main reason is what the last post by Hurk he picked up on something that I never thought of and I don't think my inspector would either.

I no the wiring in the Bldg. very well and no there are several conduits with multi wire circuits or three lines to one neutral.To correct them I would have to pull a extra neutral per tri pair.

And this would be more costly than a three phase disc.The 200 amp. three phase disc. and a feed through three phase meterbase and use the exsisting panels as sub panel will be the best way to go.

Thanks I've learned from this post.

Ronald

[ April 08, 2003, 11:01 PM: Message edited by: ronaldrc ]