Feeder or Branch Circuit ?

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Cletis

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I'm gonna feed 50 amps 240V to one of those California spa boxes which have a 2 pole 30amp and 2 pole 20 amp gfci breakers in it with 2 lugs like an MLO panel. So is this like a feeder to a sub panel or a branch circuit ? I'm leaning towards a feeder with feeder rules
 
I asked this question to cmp members. If you have a breaker in the panel and a pull out at the spa then it is a branch circuit but install a breaker at the disconnect and then you have a feeder and a branch circuit. The cmp member who answered this question said he would treat the entire run as a branch circuit.

Interesting answer since I wrote a proposal to put an exception in the nec for exactly that situation and it got turned down. On an a/c unit it may make a difference.
 
Branch or Feeder still requires an EGC 215.12(B), and Cletis 4/3 Aluminum SER has none.

Further 680.6 prohibits the absence of grounding for Spa disconnect, feeder, or branch.
 
ramsy said:
Branch or Feeder still requires an EGC 215.12(B), and Cletis 4/3 Aluminum SER has none.

Further 680.6 prohibits the absence of grounding for Spa disconnect, feeder, or branch.
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SER has neutral, 2 hots and an equipment grounding conductor. Did you mean something else or am I misunderstanding you?
 
Dennis Alwon said:
SER has neutral, 2 hots and an equipment grounding conductor. Did you mean something else or am I misunderstanding you?
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Now I see, Southwire sells SE/R with & without an EGC, but only a bare EGC.

The Bare EGC would be prohibited for branch circuits in corrosive pool environments, per 680.23(F)(1), but perhaps not for feeders. Aluminum SE/R may also be prohibited in pool environments.
 
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ramsy said:
Now I see, Southwire sells SE/R with & without an EGC, but only a bare EGC.

The Bare EGC would be prohibited for branch circuits in corrosive pool environments, per 680.23(F)(1), but perhaps not for feeders. Aluminum SE/R may also be prohibited in pool environments.
Click to expand...

Is 10ft away from a freshwater hot tub a "pool environment" ?
 
Little Bill said:
The 2017 changed some of this. Basically, if the area is not a corrosive area/environment, any chapter 3 wiring method can be used.
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I don't have the 2017 yet, looking at 14', are you saying 680.42(C) is no longer there or has changed?
Also I'm in Jersey, so If 2017 hasn't been adopted yet I would still be required to follow this article, correct?

Also... saving me the google search, where does the insulated ground to a pool or spa kick in now? In reference to 680.42(C) now exterior included.... when you extend away from the building?? (guessing).
Thanks
 
ritelec said:
I don't have the 2017 yet, looking at 14', are you saying 680.42(C) is no longer there or has changed?
Also I'm in Jersey, so If 2017 hasn't been adopted yet I would still be required to follow this article, correct?

Also... saving me the google search, where does the insulated ground to a pool or spa kick in now? In reference to 680.42(C) now exterior included.... when you extend away from the building?? (guessing).
Thanks
Click to expand...

680.42(C) is still there but it says (still says) to go by parts I & II of Article 680. That is where the change was.
Here is the change for feeders, it's basically the same for branch circuits

680.25(A)
(A) Feeders. Where feeders are installed in corrosive environments
as described in 680.14, the wiring method of that
portion of the feeder shall be as required in 680.14(B) or shall
be liquidtight flexible nonmetallic conduit. Wiring methods
installed in corrosive environments as described in 680.14 shall
contain an insulated copper equipment grounding conductor
sized in accordance with Table 250.122, but not smaller than
12 AWG.
Where installed in noncorrosive environments, feeders shall
comply with the general requirements in Chapter 3.
Click to expand...
 
Little Bill said:
680.42(C) is still there but it says (still says) to go by parts I & II of Article 680. That is where the change was.
Here is the change for feeders, it's basically the same for branch circuits
Click to expand...

Thank you..

There's no distinction between feeder and circuit? I'm aware that feeders at a time were ok not to have an insulated egc.. then it went to existing was ok.. then change to insulated only on feeders..
Where is circuit in this?

edit... so now as of 2017, feeders again aren't requiring an insulated ground (pending environment... which I would think is also outside down the side of a building could be corrosive ??)??

Thank you
 
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ritelec said:
Thank you..

There's no distinction between feeder and circuit? I'm aware that feeders at a time were ok not to have an insulated egc.. then it went to existing was ok.. then change to insulated only on feeders..
Where is circuit in this?

edit... so now as of 2017, feeders again aren't requiring an insulated ground (pending environment... which I would think is also outside down the side of a building could be corrosive ??)??

Thank you
Click to expand...

The intent of corrosive, IMO, is where toxic material from pool chemicals is present. I wouldn't think outside, down the side of a building would be considered corrosive unless that's where the chemicals were stored/used.

Also, unless your area picks out certain new codes to adopt to add to their existing code you wouldn't be affected by the 2017 until it is adopted in your area.
 
ritelec said:
Would you consider earth corrosive ?

Does this code change now allow uf wiring to a pool motor/receptacle ?
Click to expand...

As I mentioned before, "corrosive" has to do with pool chemicals. They even added a section to cover this.

680.14
680.14 Corrosive Environment.
(A) General. Areas where pool sanitation chemicals are
stored, as well as areas with circulation pumps, automatic chlorinators,
filters, open areas under decks adjacent to or abutting
the pool structure, and similar locations shall be considered to
be a corrosive environment. The air in such areas shall be
considered to be laden with acid, chlorine, and bromine
vapors, or any combination of acid, chlorine, or bromine
vapors, and any liquids or condensation in those areas shall be
considered to be laden with acids, chlorine, and bromine
vapors, or any combination of acid, chlorine, or bromine
vapors.
(B) Wiring Methods. Wiring methods in the areas described
in 680.14(A) shall be listed and identified for use in such areas.
Rigid metal conduit, intermediate metal conduit, rigid polyvinyl
chloride conduit, and reinforced thermosetting resin
conduit shall be considered to be resistant to the corrosive
environment specified in 680.14(A).
Click to expand...
 
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