Feeder or Branch Circuit.

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kzoo

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Hello everyone,

I've searched through threads regarding feeders and branch circuits and I'm still a bit confused about branch circuits with SOCP vs. feeders.

If you have a service panel in a residence that if supplying a well pump and associated controls and said well pump is equipped with an OCP device from the factory is the supply a branch circuit or a feeder?

The well pump is shared between two different homes. The two ungrounded conductors are switched but the neutrals and grounds from each home are tied together inside the well pump enclosure.

My take on things is that the supply is a branch circuit with a SOCP device located inside the enclosure. So, the design violates 210.4, 210.25, besides not being a good idea.

Thanks in advance. :confused:
 
1-Sounds like you have two branch circuits suppling a building that is if you only are feeding the pump if there is lights, heater, and receptacle being supplied from the circuits you are desribing then they would be considered feeders as there would be additonal overcurrent device in load center.
 
The branch circuit is feeding the pump and associated control equipment. The controller consists of a software controller, associated relays etc... No lights or outlets.
 
Let me see if I have this straight.

You have one well pump supplied from pump controllers in two separate homes.

The neutrals and ground from both homes join together at the pump.

The hots join together at the pump but are switched by the controllers in each home.

Is that what you have?

And is the pump down a well or in a pump house?
 
How can we permit 2 houses to feed one out building ?That building is being given 2 services.Also why are the neutrals together.That could cause problems in either or both houses.
 
Jim W in Tampa said:
How can we permit 2 houses to feed one out building ?
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We don't know that there is a building, it might be just a well with a submersible pump. However, is a well casing a structure? I think it might be.


Also why are the neutrals together.That could cause problems in either or both houses.
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I don't know that would cause any problem but it is a violation.
 
As I see it there should be a seperate meter and service just for this equiptment and it should be controlled by pressure switchs not controll wires.All the grounded conductors being tyed could become a problem if one of the two homes has a poor neutral conductor back to the POCO, it could cause a back feed to tho other house and if the grounded conductor to the well is smaller then the ground conductor from the service it could overload the ground conductor. At a minimum the well could act as the EGC and would need to have full size ground conductors from the service run to it.
 
iwire said:
?

The presser switches will need wiring will they not.
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What I ment is that insted of running wires from the pump controller to each house one pessure switch would opperate in a ''demand'' situation. much in the same way the city water line to a house works, the line is under pressure no flow it stands at -x- pounds of line pressure. Open the valve water flows pressure drops , switch kicks in, pump runs. No open valves no pressure drop, switch doesn't make contact.The only thing you need to add is an expantion tank as a cushion so the switch doesnt hammer the pump on and off.
 
tom baker said:
Start with the Art 100 Definition of Branch circuits and feeders.
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Well, that's what I did. The way "I" see it, it's a "Branch Circuit, Multiwire" as defined by Article 100. But the Article 100 definition for a Branch Circuit is the circuit conductors between the final overcurrent device protecting the circuit and the outlet(s). This is where I'm confused. Would the code consider the portion of the circuit between the service panel and the control enclosure and branch or feeder? Would the code consider the circuit breaker in the control enclosure protecting the pump a SOCP device?

Ok, more clarification - the circuit is run to a control enclosure, not a "building". I think the code considers it a stucture? The circuit feeds the smart controller and the pumps via the load side of the circuit breaker inside the control enclosure, similar to an MCC.

Now, due to the fact that the current will take all paths to ground both houses are receiving return current from the system via the tied neutrals. My really big concern is as stated earlier if one home experiences a floating neutral then the other house will be the return path for current for both. Also, if one house experiences a short circuit condition then both houses will be the return path to ground, depending on the grounding resistance of each service ground.
 
If I am understanding you correctly.One pump, one controller, and a feeder or branch circuit comming in from each house, two sources of electricity. Then the controller toggles between them. does the controller brake the neutral when it disconnets?
 
iwire said:
We don't know that there is a building, it might be just a well with a submersible pump. However, is a well casing a structure? I think it might be.




I don't know that would cause any problem but it is a violation.
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Sounds like a structure to me ,even if all it is is a post with the disconnect.
Think hard about an open netral from poco at either house.Even the ground wire could pose a problem.With that said we have a problem in that grounds need to be together.Whole set up in my opinion is a disaster waiting to happen.Only good way i seen a well shared is with 2 drop pipes and seperate pumps.
 
OK, given the new info.

1) It may be a Violation of 225.31

225.30 Number of Supplies.
Where more than one building or other structure is on the same property and under single management, each additional building or other structure served that is on the load side of the service disconnecting means shall be supplied by one feeder or branch circuit unless permitted in 225.30(A) through (E). For the purpose of this section, a multiwire branch circuit shall be considered a single circuit.
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2) I feel it is a violation of 250.24(A)(5) unless the neutral is being switched.

(5) Load-Side Grounding Connections. A grounding connection shall not be made to any grounded circuit conductor on the load side of the service disconnecting means except as otherwise permitted in this article.
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The fact that one neutral is connected to the other means both have load side grounding connections.
 
Jim W in Tampa said:
.Even the ground wire could pose a problem. .
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Perhaps but if both circuits are allowed to be at this structure (and they might be) the NEC requires the EGCs to be connected.

The reason I say that the two circuits may be allowed is this

225.30 Number of Supplies.
Where more than one building or other structure is on the same property and under single management,....
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Are all three buildings on the same property and under single management?

If not 225.30 does not apply.
 
The branch circuits consist of 2 ungrounded conductors that are switched, 1 neutral from each house that is not switched and 1 ground from each house that it not switched. The houses are not on the same property and not under single management and the control enclosure, I'm assuming, is on an easment.
 
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