Feeder to Hottub

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boptrop said:
Interior Wiring to Outdoor Installations.

Is what it is titled........and it falls under 680.42 Outdoor installations.....does it not?
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That is what it is titled but it only applies to the interior section of the circuit.

(C) Interior Wiring to Outdoor Installations. In the interior
of a one-family dwelling or in the interior of another
building or structure associated with a one-family dwelling,
any of the wiring methods recognized in Chapter 3 of this
Code that contain a copper equipment grounding conductor
that is insulated or enclosed within the outer sheath of the
wiring method and not smaller than 12 AWG shall be permitted
to be used for the connection to motor, heating, and control
loads that are part of a self-contained spa or hot tub or a
packaged spa or hot tub equipment assembly. Wiring to an
underwater luminaire shall comply with 680.23 or 680.33.
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iwire said:
Right, you can run NM inside till you get to the point you go outside once you get outside it stops applying. (IMO, I have not done pools or spas in ages)
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I would totally agree but the part about "shall be permitted to connect the motor, heating units, etc." has me confused.
 
Good Point, poorly written code. the hot tub-spa would have to be in the building....its stupid. The titles and following verbiage don't jive, logically...

The feeder question is an issue as well If I have a 40 A circuit and put a 10000000A breaker downstream tech. its a feeder, however for all purposes it's a disconnect as it affords no protection as it's not acting as an overcurrent device...

Likewise, my prior example is not acting as a feeder...
 
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To the OP:

If this is an inspected job, call the OHJ and ask if UF is OK.

If not, I would install it as you suggest. Arguing the semantics doesn't accomplish anything. It would seem to me that because of the design of UF, the ground is in fact insulated. But then again, I am a heretic.

And for the record: we wire spa's with NM to the outdoor disconnect mounted on the home (or to a 3R box if the disconnect would be too far away.), then pvc conduit w/ THHN from that point on. Haven't ever failed an inspection on this wiring method. I actually hate UF, primarily because it's a pain to strip.
 
electricguy61 said:
It would seem to me that because of the design of UF, the ground is in fact insulated.
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The EGC in UF is not insulated although it is enclosed within the outer sheath of the wiring method.

The rule states insulated, or , enclosed within the outher sheath of the wiring method.

To me, both NM and UF's bare ground are enclosed within an outer sheath of the wiring method.

That is until you strip the outer sheath off. :)

JAP>
 
electricguy61 said:
It would seem to me that because of the design of UF, the ground is in fact insulated. But then again, I am a heretic.
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The NEC makes a clear distinction between insulation around a wire or cable and a covering around a wire or cable.
If a wire has a covering which is made of an insulating material, but it has not been evaluated against a UL standard for its insulating performance in that use, you do not have an insulated wire.
PS: Fortunately the distinction does not matter here. See next post.
 
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jap said:
The EGC in UF is not insulated although it is enclosed within the outer sheath of the wiring method.

The rule states insulated, or , enclosed within the outher sheath of the wiring method.

To me, both NM and UF's bare ground are enclosed within an outer sheath of the wiring method.

That is until you strip the outer sheath off. :)

JAP>
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I agree and both types allowed on the interior portion of the circuit.
 
Didnt the 11 or 14 NEC do away with the 6' limit on LFMC/LFNMC? It's impossible to put a disco 5'+ away and have a flex conduit 6'. Maybe VA IRC doesnt have that section as Ive never seen a tub failed for having too long a flex from disco to tub panel.
 
JFletcher said:
Didnt the 11 or 14 NEC do away with the 6' limit on LFMC/LFNMC? It's impossible to put a disco 5'+ away and have a flex conduit 6'. Maybe VA IRC doesnt have that section as Ive never seen a tub failed for having too long a flex from disco to tub panel.
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I was looking for that rule a few months back and couldn't find it so I presume it is no longer there. However, 356.10(5) does limit us to 6' unless the conduit is fastened appropriately.

Here is what the 2014 NEC says about Hot Tubs. The word "permitted" is highlighted.

(1) Flexible Conduit. Liquidtight flexible metal conduit or
liquidtight flexible nonmetallic conduit shall be permitted.
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Dennis Alwon said:
I was looking for that rule a few months back and couldn't find it so I presume it is no longer there. However, 356.10(5) does limit us to 6' unless the conduit is fastened appropriately.

Here is what the 2014 NEC says about Hot Tubs. The word "permitted" is highlighted.
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Thank you. It's in the 08 680.42(A)(1).
 
Dennis Alwon said:
I was looking for that rule a few months back and couldn't find it so I presume it is no longer there. However, 356.10(5) does limit us to 6' unless the conduit is fastened appropriately.

Here is what the 2014 NEC says about Hot Tubs. The word "permitted" is highlighted.
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And in 2011, 356.12 (3) left the us with much greater "lee-way" when arguing allowances for flexibility.

JAP>
 
Well after all the commotion of last night, I called the local inspector on his take and he stated that UF is allowed to be used to the disconnect/GFCI breaker at the hot tub. I asked him about it being a feeder and he directed me down a different path. He went to the IRC which is the code that is used in VA for residential electrical work. It mirrors the NEC in many ways and expands in some areas. He indicated that UF cable is one of the methods that can be used/is listed for that exact purpose. SOOOOOOOOOOOO....that is now a moot point to me.

However I do believe that if the circuit is a feeder, by the NEC, it should have a insulated ground. If a mere disconnect is used then UF is acceptable.

Another point I brought up is the rule of the 6' of Flex- LFNMC or LFMC. He said that I can run the flexible conduit for as long as I like as long as there is a ground installed in the flex, insulated of course.

So Check with your local inspector, he make your penny pinching customers happy as you save them now but of course they will pay in the long run...one way or another.
 
boptrop said:
Well after all the commotion of last night, I called the local inspector on his take and he stated that UF is allowed to be used to the disconnect/GFCI breaker at the hot tub. I asked him about it being a feeder and he directed me down a different path. He went to the IRC which is the code that is used in VA for residential electrical work. It mirrors the NEC in many ways and expands in some areas. He indicated that UF cable is one of the methods that can be used/is listed for that exact purpose. SOOOOOOOOOOOO....that is now a moot point to me.

However I do believe that if the circuit is a feeder, by the NEC, it should have a insulated ground. If a mere disconnect is used then UF is acceptable.

Another point I brought up is the rule of the 6' of Flex- LFNMC or LFMC. He said that I can run the flexible conduit for as long as I like as long as there is a ground installed in the flex, insulated of course.

So Check with your local inspector, he make your penny pinching customers happy as you save them now but of course they will pay in the long run...one way or another.
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Welcome to Virginia
 
Thanks,
I was born, raised & have been doing work in VA for some time now. I live right across the border in WV and do work in both locations, Never read the IRC, always used the NEC. I do know there are some differences such as GFCI protection for lights over bath tubs (if i remember correctly) but the differences are small and never big enough for me to care much about buying and reading the IRC. Mostly I do industrial/comm. work (adopted NEC for this class of work) and try to avoid residential. This difference (in my favor) saves some $ during the here and now. As we all know though, UF cable is not preferred by pros.. I would not use at my house & it doesn't last as long as conduit will. But it cuts the hear and now cost so........
 
boptrop said:
Thanks,
I was born, raised & have been doing work in VA for some time now. I live right across the border in WV and do work in both locations, Never read the IRC, always used the NEC. I do know there are some differences such as GFCI protection for lights over bath tubs (if i remember correctly) but the differences are small and never big enough for me to care much about buying and reading the IRC. Mostly I do industrial/comm. work (adopted NEC for this class of work) and try to avoid residential. This difference (in my favor) saves some $ during the here and now. As we all know though, UF cable is not preferred by pros.. I would not use at my house & it doesn't last as long as conduit will. But it cuts the hear and now cost so........
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Biggest difference in IRC and NEC for VA atm is that VA IRC only requires AFCI breakers on bedroom outlets vs the 2011 NEC which requires much more. Hot tubs/spas/680 installs have a fair number of 1/2 family dwelling exceptions in the NEC. The 6' flex rule on spas is not enforced by any inspector here; dunno if that's because the 11/14 NEC permit it, VA IRC permits it, or inspectors just arent that familiar with every nuance of 680 installs. afaik, UF to the tub is no good under the 2012 VA IRC. Never seen a pro wire one that way even under our relaxed guidelines of the IRC.
 
boptrop said:
It's getting wired based on what the inspector will allow and what the coustomer is willing to pay.
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That is a dangerous way to do work. If the inspector allows a violation you are going to be held liable. Worse than that is if someone gets killed then you have to live with it.
 
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