fiberglass snake adapter

[renosteinke]

Thank you, fulthrottle, for the opposing viewpoint. It sure helps me draw attention to how things have changed.

I'm not sure that's a good thing.

 

[cowboyjwc]

and if it takes one one of the phases to ground in a piece of switchgear?
the metal head on most plastic fish tapes is an inch long... that's enough.

i've got a problem with the apprentice standing there with luck in one hand,
and trying to catch a fish tape with the other.

YOU stand there and catch it. thirty five years ago, an apprentice wasn't
allowed into live gear till their last year of apprenticeship.

today, you direct ANY employee to work something energized, in violation
of NFPA 70E, and most employers above the two man shop level will
smoke you in a heartbeat.

one of the larger shops in this area, about $75M per year in work, has a
policy of NO HOT WORK AT ALL. anyone working stuff hot is immediately
terminated.

no exceptions.

they had a guy die a few years back, and the total cost to the firm was in
excess of two million dollars... fines, wrongful death, legal fees, etc.

sorry... but you aren't worth two million dollars to an employer, alive or dead.
none of us are.

That's exactly what I was thinking.:happyyes:

 

[cadpoint]

Metal to fiberglass, none that I've heard of.

Think of it this way.

It's the unknown that the fiberglass travels through. The other elements that this product might touch or travel through; can and will creat a path to travel on. IE your completing a circuit.

In your case your still energizing the tip of this probe, while the product itself will not accept the
transferance of EMF, the same EMF will travel a path of dirt that with one could create.

 

[Fulthrotl]

Thank you, fulthrottle, for the opposing viewpoint. It sure helps me draw attention to how things have changed.

I'm not sure that's a good thing.

no, it probably isn't. i suspect you've been doing this about as long as i have,
and it's just different now. the lawsuit hazard has exceeded the shock hazard.

the only reason i can direct anyone to do anything energized, is if it is more
hazardous to do it with the power off... industrial processes where dropping
voltage on a process makes it more dangerous... stuff like that.

today i was doing a load check on the primary side of a 150 KVA xfmr, so
i'm in sierra gear on the right hand side, so i've got 1KV gloves on,
and i'm using the cable CT, and snoodling it around the wires...

if i had an employee doing it, there'd have to be an arc flash certificate
telling me what level of PPE i needed to provide him, and it's gonna amount
to a suit, etc. now, i can put on a 12 calorie suit, and i'm supposed to, just
to remove that 5" wide cover and look....

and we have been on jobs where you have to have a 5 point harness on a
six foot ladder....

i have 12 calorie PPE, and also the common sense to know when i need it.
common sense and NFPA 70E don't overlap much. if i need more than 12
calorie PPE, i need to turn the damn thing off...

and pushing forty years ago i used to test hi voltage electronics with 30 KVAC
@ 10 amps barehanded, sitting on a chair on a silicone mat, depending
on technique... it's a different world now, and it's gonna stay this way.

 

[jmellc]

6 feet of insulated #12 solid. Bend 2 inch head on 1 end. Tape well with 33 or 88. Overlay 3 or 4 inches with fishtape. Tape tightly as possible with 33 or 88. Push through conduit & #12 will enter panel fully insulated. Great if you are in sight & can see it yourself, or have someone watching. Use needle nose pliers to fish wire out & make heads. Tie a rubber apron over panel for safety, leaving just enough open space to feed wire. I've done this hundreds of times with no trouble. Use whatever color wire will show up best entering panel.

If conduit has existing conductors that have to stay in place, spend the $ for a nylon or fiberglass fish tape. You don't want to risk nicking insulation. In some situations, you could use an existing wire as a puller, and replace it, ie attach new wires to green, pull new green with others & reconnect as before.

Also pull a string for any future needs. Jet line is great. I have also used scraps of 14 or 16 stranded THHN if handy. They are ideal, as slick & easy to pull in future & stronger than most string. Tape ends well with 33 or 88.

 

[jmellc]

you can screw a carlon ENT FA with a 4' length of smurf tube onto a conduit
to carry the fish tape out of the panel.

until someone screws up and puts it on the wrong pipe by mistake.

ya need a plastic fish tape. even with that, you still have a metal
ferrule on the end that you'd better tape up before fishing into a
panel.

what i usually do, is the smurf tube with a snap on FA onto the conduit,
and then shove a fish tape FROM the panel.

when i was an apprentice, one of the large shops in the area lost an
apprentice when he shoved a fish tape into a plastic pipe, and it was
the wrong pipe, and went into live 480 gear. the PVC meant that
the first path to ground was thru him, and he was standing at a light
pole bollard in water. stone dead instantly.

Reminds me of a seasoned veteran I used to work with, but he was losing it badly. Old hotel building, we found a hidden j box under floor. Had to cut carpet, etc. He put a metal fishtape in a conduit & went to town. I asked if he knew where it went. "No, that's why I'm fishing it!!". I mentioned transformers & live panels, suggested a fiberglass tape. "Do you know how much them things cost?". I asked about the cost of transformers, panels and funerals. He finally saw my point & sent someone to buy a fiberglass tape.

 

[JDB3]

Depending on the way the original conduit was ran, bur I have started using a vacuum & plastic bag to get pull lines in.

 

[Stevareno]

With luck, the apprentice will catch the leader as it enters the panel, attach the new wires, and you can pull them back.

The apprentice should not be the one waiting at an open panel for the fishtape to arrive.
He should be doing the grunt work pushing the fish tape. :happyyes:

 

[JJWalecka]

The apprentice should not be the one waiting at an open panel for the fishtape to arrive.
He should be doing the grunt work pushing the fish tape. :happyyes:

A good apprentice is worth their wieght in gold. Even if it takes twice as long its still cheaper than a journeyman doing it.

 

[jmellc]

A good apprentice is worth their wieght in gold. Even if it takes twice as long its still cheaper than a journeyman doing it.

I had a new guy once who was hard to teach but he had a knack for 1 particular thing. He had a very steady hand & could drill a hole saw into a live panel, bus bars dangerously close & pull back the second the slug got cut. After seeing him practice it on scrap metal, we let him do all those cuts. 1 of us would hold layers of plywood & or cardboard underneath to catch the slug.

Also had a friend working with me a while back. Had drug issues for years, then got clean. Hard to teach but good attitude. I was showing him 1 day how to cut a hole in the wall with a sawzall, with stud in the way. Stepped to truck for something, heard saw going when I got back in. I was terrified he was wrecking the wall. But I got in & saw him looking like a dentist in someone's mouth. He had a nice touch with a dangerous tool he had never used before. Everyone does something well.

 

[Dr Mantis Toboggan]

thirty five years ago, an apprentice wasn't
allowed into live gear till their last year of apprenticeship.

today, you direct ANY employee to work something energized, in violation
of NFPA 70E, and most employers above the two man shop level will
smoke you in a heartbeat.

These must be local things because neither of them are true in any of my experience.

 

[roger]

These must be local things because neither of them are true in any of my experience.

How familiar are you with NFPA 70E and OSHA rules?

Roger

 

[Dr Mantis Toboggan]

How familiar are you with NFPA 70E and OSHA rules?

Roger

Very familiar. I've had 70E training through the safety department with multiple companies now, OSHA 30 as well (BORING!).

However, that really has nothing to do with what I posted.

In all my years, I never saw anything prohibiting apprentices from working on live parts until their last year of apprenticeship. I've heard people saying things like this, the same way as they say that you can't splice in a panel or you can't run over 100' of pipe without a pull point, but I never found any actual regulation, just baseless gossip. Whether it be union rules, corporate guidelines, or state/municipal laws, I've never seen it written that way. I'm not saying that it might not be that way in some places, just that it's certainly not like that across the board.

Second, I completely disagree with the statement of "most employers will smoke you if you work hot or direct someone to work hot." That again is a baseless generalization.

The fact is working hot is still a large part of our industry. We may not like it, it may not be "legal", but it is still there, and it is rampant.

I am currently working for a very large electrical contractor (450 employees). On Friday when I was doing a little walk-through at the hospital we are working at with my PM I showed him where we will be coming out of a panel and running a pipe out of the gear room. When he said, "Yeah, that'll be fine, you got space to make a KO right here" he never said "I'll get you a space suit, and I'll talk to the hospital about a shutdown on Sunday and I'll approve you guys to come in on doubletime". Does that happen sometimes? Sure. All the time? HELL NO!

Whether you want to see it as turning a blind eye or just business as usual, the fact is that it is extremely common for electrician to work hot, everywhere from large installations to replacing a breaker in Grandma's panel without having the PoCo come and disconnect. I am not advocating it one way or the other, just reporting on what I see and have seen.

 

[roger]

I am not advocating it one way or the other, just reporting on what I see and have seen.

And that is fine but, as you already said, it is not legal.


Roger

 

[Dr Mantis Toboggan]

And that is fine but, as you already said, it is not legal.


Roger

Has anyone said anything to the contrary?

 

[Fulthrotl]

These must be local things because neither of them are true in any of my experience.

or your experience is limited.

 

[Fulthrotl]

Second, I completely disagree with the statement of "most employers will smoke you if you work hot or direct someone to work hot." That again is a baseless generalization.

well, actually it's a fact. at least among the top
half dozen largest electrical contractors in calif.

NFPA 70E is pretty clear on the subject... about the
only time you can work something hot is if it would
be more dangerous to turn it off.... chemical and
industrial processes come to mind.

morrow-meadows, sasco, helix, anderson & howard,
delta diversified, cupertino electric, there is a long list,
both union and open shop, who have a "no hot work"
policy.

so give me half a dozen names of shops above the 100
man level that permit hot work in violation of NFPA 70E.

back up your "baseless generalizations" with facts.
you disagree? back it up with facts.

 

[Dr Mantis Toboggan]

or your experience is limited.

ALL of our experience is limited. For example, I see that you are in CA. As we all know, CA has some of the silliest laws in the country. So I could understand your mentality of "everything you could possibly think of is restricted and if you do it you'll go to jail!".

well, actually it's a fact.

No, it's a baseless generalization.

at least among the top half dozen largest electrical contractors in calif.

You see? The CA thing again... You cannot give a fair assessment of contractors around the country by what some contractors in CA do.

BTW, 6 contractors is far from "most employers" like you said earlier. "Most employers" are the thousands of small 2-15 men shops who most certainly do not all "smoke" employees for working hot, not even in CA.

NFPA 70E is pretty clear on the subject... about the
only time you can work something hot is if it would
be more dangerous to turn it off.... chemical and
industrial processes come to mind.

No one is arguing NFPA 70E.

morrow-meadows, sasco, helix, anderson & howard,
delta diversified, cupertino electric, there is a long list,
both union and open shop, who have a "no hot work"
policy.

Agreed. But does that short list of contractors actually follow it all the time? I bet you they don't, not all of them. And we still have the majority of employers that I mentioned above who most likely don't either.

so give me half a dozen names of shops above the 100
man level that permit hot work in violation of NFPA 70E.

Do you think they advertise this? For someone who brags about his experience above other's you seem to be acting a bit naive about this. I guarantee you, if I went to work for any of those large contractors and talked to the men from the inside, the majority of them would be able to tell plenty of stories about how the company has knowingly allowed them to work hot on many occasions.

back up your "baseless generalizations" with facts.
you disagree? back it up with facts.

I did not make baseless generalizations, I countered your's. The following two things that you said are simply not true:

thirty five years ago, an apprentice wasn't
allowed into live gear till their last year of apprenticeship.

today, you direct ANY employee to work something energized, in violation
of NFPA 70E, and most employers above the two man shop level will
smoke you in a heartbeat.

What you said is false, there is really nothing to argue about.

 

[renosteinke]

For all the hysteria regarding 70E and what "OSHA might do," or "how the lawyers will rejoice," I do think we need to compare the 'texbook fantasy world' with the 'real world' once in a while.

Working Live? I consider 'working live' to be something like connecting a live PoCo triplex to a new service mast - pulling dead wiresinto a panel for connection to an 'off' breaker' isn't really 'working hot.'

Sure, there's electricity present, and you can play the 'what if' game all day. To deal with the possible risks, the trade has developed all manner of tips, tricks, and procedures. One of these is, oddly enough, pushing the fish into the panel. Once that leader has pulled the wires back into the pipe, there's no bare metal left to contact the live parts of the panel. This would contrast with the opposite, where you'd have the metal fish bouncing around in the panel for the entire time you're pulling.

The rules might say 'suit up' just to pull the cover and verify the entire panel is dead, but I've never seen that happen.

This discussion is also misleading, as it is ignoring the differences between panels. It's one thing to do this in a high-amperage, high voltage panel right next to a monster transformer, and another to do it into a 6-circuit manual transfer switch that's fed by a household 60-amp service.

For all the bragging, I suspect the trade (as a whole) performs a lot more work in panels where you couldn't create an arc flash if you tried.

Can these lesser amounts of electricity hurt you, or damage things? Sure they can. Fact is, even 70E distinguishes between 'danger levels.' Yet, all the armchair lawyers shriek like a hooker who has a check bounce, should anyone ever admit to the practices in the real world.

Heck, I 'worked hot' not five minutes ago, without any PPE, and I bet I was even legal. What did I do? Why, I changed a light bulb. Seems one of the switches were 'on.' Or, maybe, it was a 'California 3-way.' I don't know - and, at this point, I don't care.

This is the problem with 70E, and every other sort of 'one size fits all' approach. Procedures have their place, but there is also a place for the professional to exercise his judgement.

Today's news has an item about an Alabama town, which has not been able to even sweep up broken glass from last years' torando, all because they're waiting for government permission. That's the world we're building, as everyone goes about outlawing everything. One can ALWAYS find an excuse to do nothing.

And if someone, like the "Doctor," dares to state that the real world is a bit different from the world of the rule book .... folks, we're not helping anyone by ignoring reality.

 

[John120/240]

And if someone, like the "Doctor," dares to state that the real world is a bit different from the world of the rule book .... folks, we're not helping anyone by ignoring reality.

NFPA 70 E is the new reality so quit ignoring it. No "Hot" work is the new normal.

If you deem NFPA 70 E to be obsolete, write a proposal to change it. Reno & Dr Mantis how

would change NFPA 70 E ?